Epic vs Alexa Producer Arguement

[Rob Ruffo]

I would add longer Steadicam times, due to smaller weight.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think Jim will eventually be right, that 4K will be in the home. It probably would be already, if the economy hadn't tanked over the last four years.

Given a strong economy, low unemployment, and lots of disposable income, it'll happen. But again: there's about 100 channels on most average cable systems and satellite systems that are still standard def... not even HD. 4K is a quantum leap beyond that in terms of bandwidth and capacity.

Hell, I still see at least three local TV stations in LA doing news remotes in standard def (one of them being KNBC Channel 4, who should know better). These nimrods can't even handle doing a 100% switchover to 1080 HD, which is tinkertoys in cost and complexity compared to true 4K.

 

[Michael Brennan]

what makes you guys think that 4K distribution is just around the corner?

The landscape of distribution and display technology is changing.


A week after announcing $25B losses Sony and Panasonic are in discussions now about joining forces to produce OLED TVs. Their share prices are at 1970 levels.

Times are tough for both P&S as they are losing business to the Koreans. It is this kind of competition that will drive new models new features and keen prices.
Here in Oz (where the consumer is still spending) Koreans are dumping 46 inch led 3d sets for US$599.


There has been plenty written about the development of 8K. Last week NHK unveiled a single chip 8k broadcast camera no bigger than a shoulder news camera, a massive reduction in weight and size from their 3 chip camera.
Whilst Japan has a roadmap for 8k broadcast, it is still a decade away in my view.


I think their is a 4k dark horse that will not come from the broadcast stable.
It seems likely that Apple will finally make a LED TV with the kind of connectivity to ipads iphone and internet currently available and working on their "Apple TV" box ($99) as well as receiving off air

4k sets can be made now from the same factories making LED sets.

So imagine... a 4k Apple TV set where you download 4k content from itunes, a very nice business model for Apple. My 15 year old daughter happily pays the extra 50cent premium from itunes for the HD version of her favourite shows. Both my daughter and my son have been watching their favourite shows, such as Dr Who, Modern Family, South Park, Little Britain and Off Spring on their laptops for a few years. Now they use the Apple TV box to stream from the ipad to the large screen TV. Their school provides an ipad for every student.
Australia is spending US$36B to provide high speed fiber to the majority of the population.
4G has arrived.
This is the new world and one where opportunities to make money from 4k are on the horizon.

2k may fall short from future proofing for 8k! but there is only a tiny percentage of TV shows and movies that have a significant commercial return that reaches beyond a decade.. so producers are asking why shoot 4k now if there is a cost penalty that takes funds from other parts of the budget?

My money is on 4k downloads.


Mike Brennan

 

[Felix van Oost]

There's no doubt that the distribution and display technology landscapes are changing dramatically, there's no way I could argue they aren't. The 8K cameras recently announced are also very interesting from a technological standpoint, but as you say 8K is quite a way away form being mainstream (let alone 4K). I agree that if / when 4K distribution does become mainstream, it will be in the form of downloads - I don't see broadcast being able to cope with anything close to 4K for a while yet, especially for live events. With regards to your Apple TV model though, how many people actually have Apple TVs? And if they don't, what's the point in watching 4K material on 1080p or lower computer monitors? Even if Apple does release a Retina-display Macbook this year (which, by all means, would be awesome), they still only have less than 10% market share so we'd have to wait for high-DPI monitors to appear in the majority of PCs before 4K via internet becomes mainstream.

Another issue is that of the internet. Assuming the chosen distribution medium for 4K will be digital download (which seems to make the most sense), 4K will be inconvenient and / or costly for people with slower connections or metered data caps like they have in the US. I know this is improving, but most people I talk to rarely even watch YouTube in HD because it loads marginally slower than SD content (even in Singapore, where 1Gbs+ fibre is pretty common now). For 4K to really be viable, either internet connections will have to improve rapidly in speed and the removal of data caps (which, unfortunately, won't happen soon), or 4K will have to be compressed to hell to make file sizes comparable to those of present 1080p (in which case one can argue that the difference in quality to the average viewer will be negligible). I'm not trying to dismiss 4K outright, but the idea that it's going to be the standard this or even next year (as Jim keeps maintaining) and that we all need to be shooting 4K to be "future-proof" is frankly, ridiculous.

 

[Mark Toia]

4k, 2k.. who cares at this point in time.. Most countries still only take 720x576 PAL or NTSC for TV commercials... Films are still 2k.. slowly turning in 4k YAY! but!!....
Frankly, the final mastered resolution argument does not hold water for me either...
The only reason why I like 5k resolution is so I can zoom in and around in my shots re-framing re sizing to get the best from the image... I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in.
Also alot of my jobs the clients pull stills from the footage and use in billboards, Print, etc... and I get even more money. I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in again.
So there are benefits for shooting 4k/5k resolution... over HD Pro res.

But really...
Size, weight, speed, fast frames rates, RAW work flow, bang for buck, price, travel freight costs etc etc etc... make a big difference to my producers decisions and mine. They don't care what I shoot on, so long as I can do what I can in the time they have given me.
I'm into shooting a lot each day... I big on coverage, and there is know way an ALEXA can do what I want it to do in the times I have and wjat I want to achieve each day.... I've tried and failed.

Arri make great cameras, thats a fact... but the size limits what I can personally do in the time I give myself, and the places I shoot around the world...

At the end of the day though. The images out of the Alexa are great... and so are the images from the EPIC.
Who really cares at the end of the day what the other person shoots... So long as you get what you want on screen.

DP's should dictate what tools they need, not producers... Producers should give a budget to work with and we as DP's or directors should work within that budget to give the best results, with what ever camera suites the job.

I'm about to do a $800,000 job on 5 go pro's.... because they can do what no ALEXA or EPIC can't do as well.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

4k, 2k.. who cares at this point in time.. Most countries still only take 720x576 PAL or NTSC for TV commercials... Films are still 2k.. slowly turning in 4k YAY! but!!....
Frankly, the final mastered resolution argument does not hold water for me either...
The only reason why I like 5k resolution is so I can zoom in and around in my shots re-framing re sizing to get the best from the image... I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in. Also alot of my jobs the clients pull stills from the footage and use in billboards, Print, etc... and I get even more money. I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in....
So there are benefits for shooting 4k/5k... over HD Pro res.

But really...
Size, weight, speed, fast frames rates, RAW work flow, bang for buck, price, travel freight costs etc etc etc... make a big difference to my producers decisions. They don't care what I shoot so long as I can do what I can in the time they have given me.
I'm into shooting a lot each day... and there is know way an ALEXA can do what I want it to do... I've tried and failed.

Arri make great cameras but it limits what I can personally do in the time I give myself, and the places I shoot around the world...

At the end of the day though. The images out of the Alexa are great... and so are the images from the EPIC.
Who really cares at the end of the day what the other person shoots... So long as you get what you want on screen.

DP's should dictate what tools they need, not producers... Producers should give a budget to work with and we as DP's or directors should work within that budget to give the best results, with what ever camera suites the job.

I'm about to do a $800,000 job on 5 go pro's.... because they can do what no ALEXA or EPIC can't do as well.

Subscribed... Again!

 

[Mark Andersen]

The problem with that list is it is hugely geared towards making Epic look the best.... For instance, you could throw a GH2 into the mix and it would arguably get as many ticks as the Epic, because you have set the list up to be biased towards a smaller, cheaper camera.

I'm not wading into an Epic/Alexa debate, as it is simply horses for courses..... But that list doesn't paint a very full picture, in my opinion (pitting HDRx against native DR, for instance).

I agree, it's a bit like politics, or marketing.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I do a fair amount of stock, and I too pull stills from the shoot. 5K made this even easier than the Red One and the Dragon will give me even better stills. Like Mark, I too often crop sometimes dramatically, I recently shot some wildlife at 5K but wasn't close enough, after cropping it was more like a 3K shot.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

I don't believe imax can resolve much more than 720p.. although the homeopathy crowd will maintain it works

Dear lord, I hope you're kidding. I grew up watching Imax films, I assure you it resolves a tad more than 720p. But you can believe whatever you like I guess.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

IMAX is three times the width of 35mm motion picture film, and Red themselves has measured that negative to be more than 3K. If IMAX were only 1.2K across in resolution, then 35mm negative would only be .5K! Same goes for print projection, if IMAX were only 720P, then 35mm projection is only NTSC.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Getting back to the original poster:
The producer's concern seems to be focused at least partly on workflow.
It's an ongoing concern for a lot of people.
No amount of Reducation over the years will clear up pre-conceptions or inability to grasp workflow logic or details.
And no amount of talking about how simple it is to use Redcine gets around the fact it takes some amount of time, some kind of delay, and usually labor costs to produce files with it.

NONE OF THIS DISCUSSION NEEDS TO BE HAPPENING with regard to workflow, at least, except that Red hasn't produced a module to create Prores or DNXHD files.
RAW is meant to be about choices, so why not give customers the credit to make their own choices, to create quality offline files, that are good enough to online for many projects.
Just produce a reliable way of producing these files, with audio, and at any framerate the camera produces. Seamlessly, every time, without having to rely on third party products that can appear clunky, and often are clunky, seem to be not 100% reliable, and give the impression that the camera isn't fully functioning to satisfy a production's needs?
WHY THE HELL NOT?

RED, please empower your customers.
It would sell like hotcakes, make Red money, and make a lot of people relieved and happy.

Sorry about the caps.

 

[Mike P.]

Yeah, I'm with Mark (Toia and Pugh) on this. A module just seems like a no-brainer for when RAW isn't necessary (for offline or for not-so-high-profile jobs). Plus, ProRes and DNxHD are still 10-12bit and have quite a bit of room for tweaking in post. It would take the wind out of the sails of most naysayers whilst taking another massive bite out of Alexa in the process.

By the way Pugh, I saw Acolytes recently. Loved it.

 

[shashbugu]

4k, 2k.. who cares at this point in time.. Most countries still only take 720x576 PAL or NTSC for TV commercials... Films are still 2k.. slowly turning in 4k YAY! but!!....
Frankly, the final mastered resolution argument does not hold water for me either...
The only reason why I like 5k resolution is so I can zoom in and around in my shots re-framing re sizing to get the best from the image... I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in.
Also alot of my jobs the clients pull stills from the footage and use in billboards, Print, etc... and I get even more money. I can't do that with HD pro res. Thats were resolution comes in again.
So there are benefits for shooting 4k/5k resolution... over HD Pro res.

But really...
Size, weight, speed, fast frames rates, RAW work flow, bang for buck, price, travel freight costs etc etc etc... make a big difference to my producers decisions and mine. They don't care what I shoot on, so long as I can do what I can in the time they have given me.
I'm into shooting a lot each day... I big on coverage, and there is know way an ALEXA can do what I want it to do in the times I have and wjat I want to achieve each day.... I've tried and failed.

Arri make great cameras, thats a fact... but the size limits what I can personally do in the time I give myself, and the places I shoot around the world...

At the end of the day though. The images out of the Alexa are great... and so are the images from the EPIC.
Who really cares at the end of the day what the other person shoots... So long as you get what you want on screen.

DP's should dictate what tools they need, not producers... Producers should give a budget to work with and we as DP's or directors should work within that budget to give the best results, with what ever camera suites the job.

I'm about to do a $800,000 job on 5 go pro's.... because they can do what no ALEXA or EPIC can't do as well.

Very well put...

 

[shashbugu]

I just wish RED EPICs spat out a 2k & 4k PRORES file in LOG...
Then this augment wouldnt been taking place....

RED cannot ignore that the R3D workflow (even though very easy for some of us) is the only thorn in its side for the non educated.

I'm still flag waving for this puppy!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...NxHD-MODULE-who-wants-one&highlight=4k+module

Module must be 12bit 4444 ProPes debayered Redfilm3. Nothing less. I wonder if Red will ever sit up and give the people what they want.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Isn't there enough third party recorders to already fulfill this need? Why does red need to make one when you can already do this several different ways with several different products?

 

[sergio arguello]

it would seem were all meeting in the middle of the road with on-board recorders, as arri raw now more readily and affodably available and we as Epic users are wanting Prores...arent both ontainable with the use ofone of this companies products?

 

[shashbugu]

Isn't there enough third party recorders to already fulfill this need? Why does red need to make one when you can already do this several different ways with several different products?

there's none that records a scaled down debayered 2k output to 12 bit 4444 prores. They all record the 1080p monitoring output

 

[Mark Toia]

Module must be 12bit 4444 ProPes debayered Redfilm3. Nothing less. I wonder if Red will ever sit up and give the people what they want.

Amen!

 

[David Rasberry]

Squeezing 13 stop DR raw footage into a simple one light corrected 7 stop (linear) video container as the first step in the finishing process seems like a massive waste of potential to me. Log files or not, video is still only video.
There is so much bad footage out there from people applying a video mentality to RED footage it seems a shame to encourage it.

 

[Brad Webb]

Squeezing 13 stop DR raw footage into a simple one light corrected 7 stop (linear) video container as the first step in the finishing process seems like a massive waste of potential to me. Log files or not, video is still only video.
There is so much bad footage out there from people applying a video mentality to RED footage it seems a shame to encourage it.

There is a lot of bad film footage out there too.