When will we get a new Scarlet?

[Wayne Morellini]

For me the current Scarlet is a major let down. I am a very sickly person, and the thought of having to deal with large s35mm cine lens in the sort of wet area I am in is not good. Plus to kit out a Scarlet-x with Red lens and accessories is easily going to be 3 times plus the cost of the fixed kit. The fixed would have been a very convenient camera to use over the x, and instead of a prosumer camera.

However, something gives me pause to think of a more compact scarlet:
www.43rumors.com/we-need-you-new-sonnetar-poll/comment-page-1/#comments
www.43rumors.com/more-image-samples-of-the-new-sonnetar-and-some-of-the-slr-magic-scope/
www.43rumors.com/sonnetar-25mm-f1-1-prototype-spotted/

Image Samples:
www.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ktf_turbo/28250459.html
www.ktfdesign.blog.fc2.com/

You notice the unnatural defocus, duller in the middle, and the chromatic abberations and problems around the edges. But how much can such compact lens systems in s35, ff35mm and ff65mm formats be refined, with auto features also added. A number of image problems can also be removed by software in post. This means it would be possible to do a compact weather sealed s35 unit instead of a fixed to suit different stye of shooting requirements. You could also revisit 4/3rds or s16 scarlets. The issue is, does any of this compact fast lens technology able to transfer over to a compact equivalent 35-350mm lens? I would say to Red, think about it.

What do you think?

 

[Joseph Coleman]

Then use canon glass, hence the canon mount....Red has said over and over they are a cinema grade company, I don't see how lens's should be the thing stopping you from getting this camera. This is the only camera that can easily use just about any lens you can think of. Dont get me wrong an s16 sensor would have been cool. But I think reds decision is pretty logical. All I can say is hunker down, save up some money and buy a scarlet, get some nice contax zeiss glass and the thought s16 will disappear like a fart in the wind

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Joseph, you miss the point, s35 cine lens get huge, this thing is microscopic for it's speed. Cine people don't know about the real world (it is only recent Red has reverted back to the small cine market from the more hands on Eng and video services market). This strategy allows them potentially to make a bigger format scarlet combining the advantages of the smaller fixed size and mountable. The Scarlet x gets to be irrelevant down this end, unless you crop down to smaller kens formats. Now as for my self, a camcorder size is much more manageable, without bar bell weight lens, humidity/mold and some of the wettest wet weather. My health is what cant afford to handle a current x setup for what I want to do. This is also a barely 4/3rds (s16 quality coverage a guess) lens, not suitable for full Res X. If a zoom lens could be made short enough, and problems auto processed out in post, then a simple weather case can be made for the lot and pumped full of dry gas to keep it pristine. I am reflecting on a number of known issues with the scarlet that led to the 2/3rds fixed for smaller lens, that did not come up to expectations eventually.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Ummm... The current Scarlet is so new that the initial orders haven't all shipped yet. It has been four months. When do you suggest they come out with a new one?

A new model every six months... Wasn't that one of the criticisms of Canon? Incremental upgrades?

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

I think that Scarlet X is an Epic's by-product, and i would pay twice the scarlet x price for the properly working Scarlet fixed model

 

[Mike P.]

I was under the impression that RED was focusing on Epic-X and Scarlet-X and that no new bodies would be introduced for a long while (only new sensors, which fit in those "containers"). Rather than diversifying, they're consolidating. S35+ is digital cinema; anything less is ENG (which is not their focus.) If lens size is dictated by sensor size, I don't think they'll get any smaller. More over, if image quality is also dictated by lens size, they won't get smaller either.

... And to be fair, you can use s16mm/small glass in cropped modes like 2k (in some cases 3k), so the lowest common denominator has been covered by the s35 SX. The only reason someone would want a fixed lens or smaller sensor scarlet is because they assume it would be cheaper (and technically it should be, but the R&D and production costs might not be, in which case you're asking RED to dump money into something that might not be profitable)...

...Either that or I'm missing the point of your post entirely...

 

[Uli Plank]

I don't think it'll come, RED made this very clear. There is no pace left for it in the current market with cameras like Sony's FS100 or hacked GH2s being around.

 

[Kiel Milligan]

Cine people don't know about the real world

what the hell are you talking about?

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Wayne,

I am very confused by your issues. Red tried to make a fixed lens Scarley and they were not happy with the quality. If you do not like Canon glass then there are the old Zeiss t/2.1 primes that are small and very good quality. Or quite frankly some very good HD cameras out there.

 

[Robert L. Mickles]

I am extremely confused by this. You are saying that you would pay more for something most would consider inferior in many ways?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ummm... The current Scarlet is so new that the initial orders haven't all shipped yet. It has been four months. When do you suggest they come out with a new one?

A new model every six months... Wasn't that one of the criticisms of Canon? Incremental upgrades?

Funnily, that is probably what they were planning to do with 2/3rds, s35, ff. I am just raising possibilities (and having a go) of a more portable scarlet. While s16, 4/3rds, even 2/3rds is suitable, can we do a scarlet fixed sized s35 with lens like these? In that case we can convert the current scarket to this.

I was under the impression that RED was focusing on Epic-X and Scarlet-X and that no new bodies would be introduced for a long while (only new sensors, which fit in those "containers"). Rather than diversifying, they're consolidating. S35+ is digital cinema; anything less is ENG (which is not their focus.) If lens size is dictated by sensor size, I don't think they'll get any smaller. More over, if image quality is also dictated by lens size, they won't get smaller either.

... And to be fair, you can use s16mm/small glass in cropped modes like 2k (in some cases 3k), so the lowest common denominator has been covered by the s35 SX. The only reason someone would want a fixed lens or smaller sensor scarlet is because they assume it would be cheaper (and technically it should be, but the R&D and production costs might not be, in which case you're asking RED to dump money into something that might not be profitable)...

...Either that or I'm missing the point of your post entirely...

Yep, there is method to what they are doing, but advantage in diversifying. All that has happened, is that Sony and others have had time to go through their slow dragging cycle that protects profit giving time ti get ready to take on Red, rather than being crushed by them. If Scarlet fixed and s35 had come out in a timely fashion, virtually all these companies models would have been expensive junk, enough to crush some of them (especially if Nintendo or MS had pushed a cheap new home entertainment pvr console). For the exploitive way they have taken advantage of us with deliberately over priced and under powered models, they would deserve it.

The r&d work on the small cameras is already done, the lower prices were quoted on profitability by Red.

Image quality is partly determined by lens/format size (to give a flatter image) but sensor performance has a lot to do with quality. Sensor tech coming up is astronomically better than what Red has. There was a false start last decade of a super sensor technology I was trying to get my hands on to do a commercial camera, but another much better technology is coming. Good 8k 2/3 rd or smaller chips should be possible. I am trying to devise an optical scheme to use sub 1/2 inch chips professionally emulating bigger than s35 formats, some compromises, but for real world low end videography, Eng and low end Indie feature, great. I want people to have a portable camera that makes it look like they are filming with Imax 3d. Anyway, in the meantime, without giving anything away, these types of lens, if they can be brought up to scratch, offers promising improvements for even the X. The thought of getting something like this in s35 version in a weather proof case, ooens up all sorts of real world work and documentary possibilities, none of this fancy once upon a time elitest fine stuff that is going on sometimes, like a personality cult.

I think that Scarlet X is an Epic's by-product, and i would pay twice the scarlet x price for the properly working Scarlet fixed model

Sure enough Paramon, I try not to say it myself. But do people think the real reason for the axing of the whoe 2/3rd line was some quibbles about fixed lens quality rather than the unavailable lens part we were told many months before? We went from s35 follow up model, then epic s then scarlet x. The market was down, they were too late and 3k would have been up against 4k rather then 2k years before, and a number of Epic parts (and other things I have forgotten). Good on them, but we should have been told of the fixed was canned a lot before, there is a lot of convience and fkexibility in that sort of setup. But can we achieve a non crop fixed like convience? I understand where you might be coming from, handling ability in particular work situations where you had to pay more than that for inferior product. The situation now is that for under $5k Jvc will sell you a super HD near 4k camera at 144mbs avc inter, and $2k sometime. But not even the 4k camera would come close to a 2/3rds fixed scarlet if it had 4k (or 4k s16mm instead). We know it, they should know it, but the video buyers generally won't, but could be convinced.

I don't think it'll come, RED made this very clear. There is no pace left for it in the current market with cameras like Sony's FS100 or hacked GH2s being around.

I told Red from the beginning, the time for the 3k was drawing to a close when they announced it. The hacked fhd p30 gh2 is in no way as good as a 120fps 3k raw camera. Panasonic should have been at 60fps long ago, and 4k by now (the gh2 is doing incredible data rates, and should have had increased resolution video mode). We can only hope that the Gh3 has 4k p50 at least 72mbs avc inter (the closer 144mbs and 10 bit the better). But the industry still keeps playing this game of offering people mediocre features for ten times the price. But for the moment a 4k raw fixed would own even a 72mbs 4k gh3.

Wayne,

I am very confused by your issues. Red tried to make a fixed lens Scarley and they were not happy with the quality. If you do not like Canon glass then there are the old Zeiss t/2.1 primes that are small and very good quality. Or quite frankly some very good HD cameras out there.

. Smaller systems are easier to handle, but also a third the price (you don't need lens set or as many accessories to make a kit). The profitability, considering the work I am aiming at, may not be there to drop $20k-$50k on equipment for sometime, or handle it. Physical treatment is promising and ongoing. I want to see the stories that need to be told for social benefit.

What do I see, that Red may change their minds and we will see at least a ff camera, and maybe a smaller one maybe by the end of next year (recon threads hints at (dawn ) by the end of the year, and Jim will gladly try to drive us around the bend).

 

[Scott Crawley]

I sympathize with your situation and things do tend to get smaller, so perhaps one day you will find one to meet your needs. Peter is right about Scarlet. It is one of the smallest and most capable systems currently available, and with the right lens and accessory choices it can stay small.

It may be a compromise, but if weight is the issue maybe the C300 is a decent fit. You will however need to make the same careful lens choices. You only gain approximately 2lbs, but only you know if those gains justify the trade offs. Will those 2 lbs. really be a deal breaker for you?

As an aside, you seem to be stuck on the idea that the 2/3 Scarlet would have been significantly smaller and lighter than Scarlet X. I don't think it was. Do we know the weight and dimensions of the prototype?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

A bit more sophisticated. I am one of the originals in the DIY digital cinema camera scene, that Jim was inspired by, and was on the original pre-red suggestion thread. I really wanted a more realistic, professional camera direction, than harder less versatile cinema cameras, but people were blinded by Cinema. So, I really don't want to buy a little compromised prosumer 4k, or comoromised dslr, which means I have to wait for the competition, or Red, to release something. I'm not interested in cropped images, wonky lens around the edges and old liw Res lens etc, to me it is still about the art of the image. Quality portability is king (just found a fhd microdisplay glasses for veiwfinder, and 4k and 8k versions are under development). Is there a sub $1k, quality f1.1 s35 prime that stick out 2.5 cm, or fast s35 sub $1k quality full range zoom that is less than 10cm in length, for 4k shooting? If it can be done with the technique of the lens (realising that it might have no contribution to zoom lens design) than Red could help manufacture these hand made lens cheaper. I still maintain, Red can make as much off of quality low cost lens sales, as the Epic, in the end Red lens could make a bigger impact in cinema, dslr, 4/3rds and Eng lens sectors then the Epic does in cinema (healthy volume targets being the way to go) as people get stuffed on lens prices a lot.

I could award my prize (since withdrawn due to lack of activity) for the first completed commercial sub $5k digital cinema camera system (from our projects) to JVC, but it is not the authentic digital cinema thing, and not from us. JVC may deserve it more than anybody though.

Thanks Scott.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

It may be a compromise, but if weight is the issue maybe the C300 is a decent fit. You will however need to make the same careful lens choices. You only gain approximately 2lbs, but only you know if those gains justify the trade offs. Will those 2 lbs. really be a deal breaker for you?

As an aside, you seem to be stuck on the idea that the 2/3 Scarlet would have been significantly smaller and lighter than Scarlet X. I don't think it was. Do we know the weight and dimensions of the prototype?

Ohh, I see what you mean:
www.canonwatch.com/rumor-new-canon-eos-c300-for-nab/
A fixed lens camera.
Canon is making a raw compression codec from memory.

I don't think the scarlet was significantly less in size at all, but the zoom lens of the fixed was in the case. It is the lens size I'm talking about. Red said they would not make a bigger format fixed (I forget which one) because the lens would be too big. I was reading an article recently on why Canon went with 43rds like sensor for a new camera, because the lens system would be a lot bigger with their normal sized sensor. That is why I'm curriose about the possible advantages of this lens technique I listed.

 

[Steve Yager]

Buy an ikonoskop

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Something better is coming.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

the F3 is a beautiful camcorder-style camera. buy that.

RED has made it perfectly clear that they're committed to 4K+ delivery. Next stop is 4K delivery systems, not more cameras. And they need to stay focused on perfecting the current EPIC/SCARLET line-up, taking these cameras as far as they can, just as they did with the RED ONE. Then there is DRAGON, etc. With other 4K camera options ready to release, if RED can dominate the delivery space, it will mean more to maintaining a competitive edge than building more cameras, at this point.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Wayne, I remember you from the old DIY cinema camera threads, but how can you say we are not there now? Could you be more clear about your criteria? What are you looking for in a camera? It's just about glass? I'm sure you realize lenses do not benefit from Moore's law like digital imagers. If you're waiting for new lenses that are unlike anything already out there, you may be waiting for a long time.

Why JVC? Are you talking about their 1/2" 4k camera? I would wait to see the image quality before giving them any awards based on pixel count...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Cheap, but I don't think it is 4k. Where Red fails the competition can win. I have been in contact with a number of projects.

Sorry Steve, I thought you were referring to another camera that has 1/2.3 sensor version. Interestingly, it seems aptina, known for this format, has released a better sensor.
The Ikoniskope has some nice minimalist styling, I forget which model.

If you go to close to 2k why not go fhd. There are open source altasens and micron based projects. Alternative inagung forums over at dvinfo is where they hang out, and apeture sub forum I think.

www.sumix.com/products/cameras/smx-12a2c.html
www.elphel.com
www.apertus.org/

Just a little adjustment of a s35 Sony Nex 5n cheap still camera can leave all these for dead, an adjustment of the hvx9v can make these pointless.

Red has killed the open source community momentum for something that did not come.

When we started the DIY projects, I immediately went fishing for a company with the skill and resources to bring about a sub $5k commercial camera, all we got was Drake, Si, and Red, elphel and sumix dumped it on our laps, Sumix, the original, after people chased a competing fantasy.

My solution to this all was simple, release a consumer camera with pro features, spend 20% of the money to get to 80% of the quality. The mass production reduces the cost. A thousand (maybe ten now) basic prosumer cameras can be ordered at less than $200 each, even less than $100.

The truth is that now a simple Arm based product could drive a camera head to 4k cinema for a cheap cheap price. But the reality is that this is no longer enough, we now want control and workflow features and work flow itself to be in the modern world. What we need is a future Red, or an integrated cineform work flow.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I think that Scarlet X is an Epic's by-product, and i would pay twice the scarlet x price for the properly working Scarlet fixed model

wow, you make it sound like a bad thing. The fact that Scarlet is so close to epic can only be herald as Epic!!!... well epic light. But still epic in nature. The mere fact you want at 2/3 sensor means that you would compromise on the scarlet, so why not compromise and get a different camera. Red does not want to make fix lens or 2/3 anymore.

Joseph, you miss the point, s35 cine lens get huge, this thing is microscopic for it's speed. Cine people don't know about the real world (it is only recent Red has reverted back to the small cine market from the more hands on Eng and video services market). This strategy allows them potentially to make a bigger format scarlet combining the advantages of the smaller fixed size and mountable. The Scarlet x gets to be irrelevant down this end, unless you crop down to smaller kens formats. Now as for my self, a camcorder size is much more manageable, without bar bell weight lens, humidity/mold and some of the wettest wet weather. My health is what cant afford to handle a current x setup for what I want to do. This is also a barely 4/3rds (s16 quality coverage a guess) lens, not suitable for full Res X. If a zoom lens could be made short enough, and problems auto processed out in post, then a simple weather case can be made for the lot and pumped full of dry gas to keep it pristine. I am reflecting on a number of known issues with the scarlet that led to the 2/3rds fixed for smaller lens, that did not come up to expectations eventually.

Wayne, I'm not sure what your getting on about. The scarlet is not bad to lug around, at 5 pounds for a body for a cinema camera, that is bloody amazing. I think the fault lies in you not wanting to compromise on how you shoot. I too would love to use Pl and Cine glass, but it too much to lug up a mountain. So I use Canon glass, and zooms no less. I get great results. Is it perfect down to a single percent? no, but that is the compromise I make on the stories I want to tell. If the scarlet does not work, then get something else. You can't ask red to build you a camera for a small market.

You say that the cine people here don't understand the real world? There are many of us here that shoot is some of the most technically and logistically difficult places in the world. This is where our professionalism comes into place, we pick the lens and equipment right for that location. If we don't want to compromise and say shoot with a Mark II or now a III, we budget more time and add porters. I've filmed in the rainforest of Gabon, Congo where we are 4 full days walk from power and pissing rain every day. I also shot on all the highest mountain in Africa, and in swamps where we carried our gear over our heads for days. You plan for it. Lately I have been shooting volcanos with a lot of climbing involved and no porters. I just take specific lens and be more selective on how much I shoot. Adapt. Better power management would be appreciated though Red!!! You may not get absolutely technically perfect images, but you can get 90-95% there with canon zooms or others. Just get a good pack to keep it safe and dry. Fstopgear I love you. I have a good friend named Alan Root who was they wildlife filmmaker in the 70's to 90's. To hear his stories of his team carrying 16 massive packs into the congo for weeks, and personally carrying 80 pounds makes me sound like a pussy cat.

This image was shot on a canon 24-70mm Canon zoom. I don't think it's compromising at all. some can say it's too noisy, soft or this or that. But to me it is sharp, it's rich and beyond anything I thought I'd be able to shoot. I bet it would even hold up in a cinema.

compare that to a still pulled from a frame of a Canon 5D mark II. The mark II is tragic!! (and what does it weigh?)