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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

When is the cheaper Scarlet fixed coming?

Wayne, I sincerely do sympathize with those who ended up getting priced out of the RED family. Mostly because we all have to acknowledge that there was a carrot dangling there for a long time. This is a very good lesson for everyone involved. Never buy in (emotionally) until there is product on the shelf, ready to buy. Red One was a bit of an exception. It was Red's maiden voyage and a lot of us went along for the ride and were happy to do so, even when people were telling us Red was a scam and we'd never receive our cameras. The thing is, RED decided to move in a different direction with Scarlet, knowing that there would be some people who would be okay with the change in course, and others who would feel exactly like you do. It was a price they were willing to pay to go the way that worked best for the program moving forward. We can talk all day long about lens design flaws, 2/3 sensor, market competition, etc. None of it really matters. At the end of the day, RED made a decision internally to move towards a 4K Scarlet. In business, you make decisions sometimes that you know won't appease everyone but they are better for the bigger picture, i.e. the health of the company. I think that is what happened here.

I think we have to move on. We have to deal in reality of what's available at any given price range and choose products based on what fits into our production needs. Owning a RED is not something any of us are entitled to. It has to be priced where it makes sense for RED, and if we're buying cameras they have to make sense for our budgets and needs. It starts with client base. If clients are demanding 4K RAW imagery, then they need to pay for it, and therefore allow us to afford the cameras, whether it's owning or renting. Wanting to shoot 4K RAW and needing to shoot 4K RAW are two different things. Or for example, the Scarlet fixed. Same theory applies. Will 4K and beyond eventually become affordable for everyone? Probably. Right now, it's affordable for those who need it and can justify it. For everyone else, I suggest working with the best cameras you can afford. And just so I don't come off as elitist or condescending, I have taken my own advice. Yes, I own a Red One but I am not afraid to admit that I bought a GH2, hacked it, and use for jobs where Red One is not appropriate. I could have went with far more expensive cameras, maybe even a Scarlet but this little GH2 right now fits a particular niche for me and fits budget wise the projects I'm doing with it.

In my opinion, Scarlet 2/3 fixed is dead until we hear otherwise, and I'm not counting on ever hearing about it ever again.
 
Red could build a QHD (4kTV format) S16mm model on the same or a similar pixel pitch sensor as the 2/3" Scarlet would have been. A 4k raw S16mm format camera with PL mount and the higher frame rates of the original Scarlet spec would be a great doc,sports and TV production camera. I would prefer such a camera to Scarlet-X for general production use, even if they were the same price range.
 
Well the Sheriff on the Walking Dead was in the hospital while everybody became zombies and had no clue. Maybe the OP just came out of a coma and didn't know.
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
Jim explained that they wanted 4K to be the model and this killed the 3K fixed lens Scarlet. They decided to make a pro camera and not a soccer mom camera. As Ben Coleman has already stated, before the Red One pro digital cinema cameras were going from $100,000 (Sony F900) to $250,000 (Sony F35 and Arri D-21). We all got spoiled by Red's price model.
And I would assume that they made a good decision by how many orders for Scarlet have come in. (thousands)
Click to expand...

Actually you have no idea or never will know how many Scarlets were ordered. RED will never release those numbers it goes against their marketing strategy. The Scarlet order thread has been removed I believe for that reason, or maybe I can't find it but the last time I checked it was in the hundreds not thousands. Given that there would many orders not on that list I would say a realistic number would be around 1000 units.
 
Ash Worth said:
Actually you have no idea or never will know how many Scarlets were ordered. RED will never release those numbers it goes against their marketing strategy. The Scarlet order thread has been removed I believe for that reason, or maybe I can't find it but the last time I checked it was in the hundreds not thousands. Given that there would many orders not on that list I would say a realistic number would be around 1000 units.
Click to expand...


Seems like there are many guesses on order numbers, all of which purport to be "realistic." Who knows what "realistic" is. As you said, no one will know unless RED decides to tell us. Funny to discount one person's guess by suggesting we can't possibly know, only to offer another guess and claim it to be realistic. :crazy:

More than 500, less than 5,000?

EDIT: Is this the order thread to which you referred?: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?68059-The-List-Please-maintain
 
Hey!

What's the deal with the Segway?!

I was told it was going to revolutionize transportation. CLEARLY that is NOT the case. FALSE advertising.

All I see is this thing that only holds one person, and only has TWO wheels! How am I supposed to do anything with that?

I need at Least Four Wheels, and room for my wife, my dog, and two extra kids.

Also, it doesn't have internets?

Why NOT!?

Everything has internets these days, it's so commonly available - I should be able to get internets while I drive on the sidewalk.

Oh, and also it should incorporate the latest optical computers - if I can't do 15 gigaflop calculations on my segway then its worthless. Oh, and it needs a touchscreen interface that can also SEE my facial expression. I read on engadget that there are screens that can see now. Well, it better see the faces I make when I'm sad and do something to cheer me up. And it should have a LOT of processing power. Processing power is cheap these days, like a playstation can calculate the coefficient force of an atomic bomb blast, so I mean, why not - my segway should do cad renders while I drive it, and play angry birds with a 3d trajectory simulation.

Also, the heat from the processors should make me cappucino. So I can sip while driving on the sidewalk and reading the internets.

Also, it should cost $3000. If not for me, then for all the videographers and documentatorarians out there that have no other way to travel to something they want to shoot.

Personally, I think it needs to be as cheap as possible - that way living conditions could be made worse in third world countries. If they start making real wages over there then they might start expecting other human rights. Everyone knows human rights, and the opportunity to buy cheap electronics at Wal-Mart are OUR right as Westerners. Because we need the internets, LOTS OF PROCESSING POWER WITH THE LATEST TECHNOLOGIES.

Don't even think of trying to sell me something assembled in America, with a price of over $3000, that has professional capabilities. I need something that Costs nothing, does everything and has TONS OF POWER! Not because I need to to make art but because POWER IS GOOD!

Sound absurd? Well IT's NOT. Because it's MY OPINION!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
Seems like there are many guesses on order numbers, all of which purport to be "realistic." Who knows what "realistic" is. As you said, no one will know unless RED decides to tell us. Funny to discount one person's guess by suggesting we can't possibly know, only to offer another guess and claim it to be realistic. :crazy:

More than 500, less than 5,000?

EDIT: Is this the order thread to which you referred?: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?68059-The-List-Please-maintain
Click to expand...

I don't know Terence, you do the math. But given the spreadsheet, and it is the only real information we have, a more realistic number would be what I quoted. Thanks for the link. Eagerly waiting your first Scarlet footage :-)
 
Björn Benckert said:
There is probably going to be quite a few large sensor HD cameras with fixed lenses out there very soon. Maybe not shooting raw but any way. I guess RED decided not to compete with the camcorders that you can buy at the airport, instead they went for the pro film market only.

I actually think the decision to make the scarlet at all was wrong. It would have been much better if RED made epic and then stayed, with a narrow focus, making all the best out of one camera. Since "product differentiation" is what is killing most creative companies out there. So to me the best would be one camera at the time. Then progress would be faster and we would probably have our quad battery modules by now.. if it was not for all those scarlet orders... LOL.
Click to expand...

I think for all intense purposes the old scarlet program was killed. Scarlet-X is clearly EPIC light, which I guess was originally Scarlet S-5, which is now...Scarlet S35 again but with an X. It will be interesting to see what happens when the dragon line comes out. Let other camera companies make lesser quality cameras.
 
Ash Worth said:
I don't know Terence, you do the math. But given the spreadsheet, and it is the only real information we have, a more realistic number would be what I quoted. Thanks for the link. Eagerly waiting your first Scarlet footage :-)
Click to expand...

I don't know... there's currently 493 entries on the list, some of them for multiple brains for a single order. If we were to assume your number of 1000 is correct, that means that a full 50% of *all* Scarlet orders have been entered on the list.

I just don't see that being the case.
 
@Max: You'll find we Senior Members must, from time to time, relax our gifted brains from the complex number crunching and daily grind of creating award winning art with what we call humor. It is a sign of superior intellect which most Junior Members aspire too. I don't actually think my esteemed colleague Sir Sherrick is a home wrecker or a RED cheater. It was the absurd nature of the video that tickled my funny bone. I hope you understand now
 
George Butterfield said:
Wayne, don't you follow the RED SAGA? The fixed RED is "on the shelf" for now. Who knows what the future will bring. A 6K fixed 24fps only Cam, just for Cinema? Would it be difficult for an 18 to 50 Zoom to cover 6K?
Click to expand...

George, that was my question, and my prompt, what is going to happen in the future with any fixed lens scarlet?


Björn Benckert said:
It's spelled progress... A canon mount is like a fixed lens but better...
RED realized that the internal electronics of any dos lens is to say the least of very high standard. Why? Because its technology and research is payed of by millions of still photographers world wide during the last 30 years or so. Applying a electronic canon mount to your brain is far superior than a fixed lens scarlet. it's cheaper, leaves more options and for all needs and purposes a better way to go. It's so good so the canon crew has not yet figured it out. Pulling focus electronically with internal motors inside the lens is superior to most focus motors, even better than focus motors that costs about the same as a scarlet. Why invent when you can adapt whats all ready there.

So a canon mount and a Iphone profocus app for the canon mounts and I think the talk about the fixed lens scarlets is something we can leave behind...
Click to expand...

Actually, that is what I was trying to convince Red to do years ago. I also was trying to talk them into a side mount to replace the fixed altogether, even a swivel sensir mount to resemble Eng cam for Eng lens. They then produce one camera and their own electronic lens, or people use 2/3rds / s16. Simple, and low threat to Epic.

Brian Self said:
Yeah I was excited about the 3k for 3k but I own a photography studio up here in Canada with my wife, and the thought of one more soccer mom with a pro camera makes me want to sit on a table saw. My city is over saturated with rich people who are board out of their minds and for some reason choose to buy cameras and coming out with a product that is still affordable for professionals but keeps the company in the professional market, is SMART. RED is learning from Canon's mistakes.
Click to expand...

You don't have to compromise it for anybody that is not a professional or can film like one, if a bunch of rich people want to try their hand and boost your sales great.

Steve Sherrick said:
Wayne, I sincerely do sympathize with those who ended up getting priced out of the RED family. Mostly because we all have to acknowledge that there was a carrot dangling there for a long time. This is a very good lesson for everyone involved. Never buy in (emotionally) until there is product on the shelf, ready to buy. Red One was a bit of an exception. It was Red's maiden voyage and a lot of us went along for the ride and were happy to do so, even when people were telling us Red was a scam and we'd never receive our cameras. The thing is, RED decided to move in a different direction with Scarlet, knowing that there would be some people who would be okay with the change in course, and others who would feel exactly like you do. It was a price they were willing to pay to go the way that worked best for the program moving forward. We can talk all day long about lens design flaws, 2/3 sensor, market competition, etc. None of it really matters. At the end of the day, RED made a decision internally to move towards a 4K Scarlet. In business, you make decisions sometimes that you know won't appease everyone but they are better for the bigger picture, i.e. the health of the company. I think that is what happened here.

I think we have to move on. We have to deal in reality of what's available at any given price range and choose products based on what fits into our production needs. Owning a RED is not something any of us are entitled to. It has to be priced where it makes sense for RED, and if we're buying cameras they have to make sense for our budgets and needs. It starts with client base. If clients are demanding 4K RAW imagery, then they need to pay for it, and therefore allow us to afford the cameras, whether it's owning or renting. Wanting to shoot 4K RAW and needing to shoot 4K RAW are two different things. Or for example, the Scarlet fixed. Same theory applies. Will 4K and beyond eventually become affordable for everyone? Probably. Right now, it's affordable for those who need it and can justify it. For everyone else, I suggest working with the best cameras you can afford. And just so I don't come off as elitist or condescending, I have taken my own advice. Yes, I own a Red One but I am not afraid to admit that I bought a GH2, hacked it, and use for jobs where Red One is not appropriate. I could have went with far more expensive cameras, maybe even a Scarlet but this little GH2 right now fits a particular niche for me and fits budget wise the projects I'm doing with it.

In my opinion, Scarlet 2/3 fixed is dead until we hear otherwise, and I'm not counting on ever hearing about it ever again.
Click to expand...

The 3k down market scarlet versus 4k cinema rig ready Redone, was my suggestion contribution on the original red suggestion thread (or DIY digital cinema camera thead) around 2005. I am not emotionally invested in it, from day one I have been skeptical, as the then projected timeframe was too late to market for 3k to have overwhelming market impact. My suggestion was for an earlier periode that needed 4k upgrade by the old Scarlet timeframe to maintain market dominance. Believe me I have tried to get Jim interested in a pocket camera (remember he was going to do that before the scarlet fixed). Now leading manufacturers can easily justify responding with 4k pridyct, the battle to take their market is nearly over. Now even cheap cameras have sensors that can do 4k, and chipsets that can read that, it is just they are not enabled to record uncompressed.

It is just a practical thing. I tend to buy products based on suggestions I have contributed, like my Logitech home theater speaker system that I suggested active equalisation to accommodate and improve characteristics of the speaker (hopefully that did not lead to Equator's use of the system, that would be a bit too expensive, one day, one day, hopefully I'll be rich enough to by a set of those lovely surround horn monitoring speakers ;) ), in acknowledgment of their kindness to go along with it.

But the biggest issue, is that I gave up on s35 external lens, not just because of the price, but also because the fixed was the most convenient to handel considering my heath pribems, and it looks lie I may also be suffering from some demyelinisation on top of everything.

The issue is, if nobody asks for a descent well priced fixed, then we might not get one, so let's ask them to keep it in mind.

David Rasberry said:
Red could build a QHD (4kTV format) S16mm model on the same or a similar pixel pitch sensor as the 2/3" Scarlet would have been. A 4k raw S16mm format camera with PL mount and the higher frame rates of the original Scarlet spec would be a great doc,sports and TV production camera. I would prefer such a camera to Scarlet-X for general production use, even if they were the same price range.
Click to expand...

+one David ;) .

Ash Worth said:
Actually you have no idea or never will know how many Scarlets were ordered. RED will never release those numbers it goes against their marketing strategy. The Scarlet order thread has been removed I believe for that reason, or maybe I can't find it but the last time I checked it was in the hundreds not thousands. Given that there would many orders not on that list I would say a realistic number would be around 1000 units.
Click to expand...

You guys do realise that Red will only have a limited number of reject sensors from Epic production to use on Scarlet X/ Epic S. Eventually they will have to start using non reject sensors or hold off selling more until more sensors come in. I think some customers might be very lucky and get full quality chips.
 
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