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Epic's HDSDI output quality; question for the Red team

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Sean Porter

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Recently there was a thread on CML about using the Epic with a Pix240, and someone asked what settings gave you the best recordable image.

A well respected member replied:

"I would say, you can't get there from here."

The conversation continued, essentially suggesting that Epic wasn't designed to send out a high-quality HDSDI signal and that you'd never want to capture more than editing proxies from that output.

I guess I'm curious why that is; if it comes down to Epic's ability/inability to do a quality debayer while it's trying to do so many other things at once.

While I really just want to shoot and deliver RAW/REDCODE all day, there are a few instances where being able to deliver high-quality 1080p direct-to-edit files to the client at the end of the day without the bulk of a RedRocket suite would make the camera just that much more flexible.

On another note, has anyone got their hands on an Atomos Samurai? for $1600 it looks like it might give the Pix a run for its money... I spoke with the manufacturer, and while the samurai isn't collecting Red Metatada at the moment, it's "in the works"

Cheers,
 
Sean Porter said:
Recently there was a thread on CML about using the Epic with a Pix240, and someone asked what settings gave you the best recordable image.

A well respected member replied:

"I would say, you can't get there from here."

The conversation continued, essentially suggesting that Epic wasn't designed to send out a high-quality HDSDI signal and that you'd never want to capture more than editing proxies from that output.

I guess I'm curious why that is; if it comes down to Epic's ability/inability to do a quality debayer while it's trying to do so many other things at once.

While I really just want to shoot and deliver RAW/REDCODE all day, there are a few instances where being able to deliver high-quality 1080p direct-to-edit files to the client at the end of the day without the bulk of a RedRocket suite would make the camera just that much more flexible.

On another note, has anyone got their hands on an Atomos Samurai? for $1600 it looks like it might give the Pix a run for its money... I spoke with the manufacturer, and while the samurai isn't collecting Red Metatada at the moment, it's "in the works"

Cheers,
Click to expand...

The EPIC HDMI out is pretty darn good better than most HD signals I ever seen and with the possible display settings I think it out preforms the most. But then again why stand around and discuss quality when at the same time trowing it down the toilet due to the little time it takes to run the files trough with a rocket. It's nuts. I think you do get a 10bit signal out of the HDMI and in the red code you have raw 16 bit, and that you will never get out trough the HDMI cable. However if the colors are set flat so there is no clipping but still quite contrasty then the 10bits that you got are very good. And I think the debarring is again better than most. What was the "well respected member" comapring with. Since that output is very much like an Alexa capture. And that camera is to most people considered a good camera...
 
It would be great to get a full raster signal out of the HDSDI. 4KHD windows the signal requiring an adjustment in post to clean up the image. Any word on when full raster will be included in a build for 4KHD?
 
Scott Snare said:
It would be great to get a full raster signal out of the HDSDI. 4KHD windows the signal requiring an adjustment in post to clean up the image. Any word on when full raster will be included in a build for 4KHD?
Click to expand...

What if you shoot full sensor? does it not fill the whole HD frame? or is it non of the larger resolution that does? I though I saw it doing full frame at some point on the output. Still I understand if you do live action stuff but for any other application I would take the clip from the card.
 
Björn Benckert said:
What if you shoot full sensor? does it not fill the whole HD frame? or is it non of the larger resolution that does? I though I saw it doing full frame at some point on the output. Still I understand if you do live action stuff but for any other application I would take the clip from the card.
Click to expand...

The "full sensor" has an aspect ratio of ~1.9:1, so no, it doesn't fill the frame: there are black bars on the top and bottom. There is also no 5K 16:9 format that can be recorded, and 4K HD (which is 16:9, same as Canon C300) outputs with black borders around the edges, that cannot be removed.

As an aside, I really like the ~1.9:1 aspect ratio. Fairly pleasing to my eye.
 
Full image on the sdi for 4k hd is coming. We have to work around some limitations first.
 
With the RedOne I always considered the monitor output a very good video tap, but nothing you would want to use.

With the Epic I am hoping that when the situation requires it, you could actually use the SDI out and have it be decent - yes, several steps south of the RAW data set, but at least decent. IS that a realistic expectation, particularly if you took the time to build looks in RCX Pro and put them into the camera to modify the SDI image???

To be clear, I love the "virtual darkroom" RAW development process and for my own projects would never let it go. That said, I do have bills to pay and some clients who will insist on no post processing.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
To be clear, I love the "virtual darkroom" RAW development process and for my own projects would never let it go. That said, I do have bills to pay and some clients who will insist on no post processing.
Click to expand...

That pretty much sums it up =)
 
Deanan said:
Full image on the sdi for 4k hd is coming. We have to work around some limitations first.
Click to expand...

EK-cellent!
This is going to make a boat-load of Scarlet owners very happy.

Stu Aull'
Alaska
 
Deanan said:
Full image on the sdi for 4k hd is coming. We have to work around some limitations first.
Click to expand...

Cool! Thanks for making this a priority - Looking forward to an improving feature set.
Cheers!
 
Full raster 4Khd coming soon! very cool. Saves time in post and solves many issues related to broadcast quality content.
 
@ Blair

I'm curious about this a bit because I have thought about it a lot.
Would you even record recode RAW for these clients? (since they don't want it) Why waste the hard drive space? If you had to record REDCODE then Maybe all the RAW would be at 18:1 compression or something.
 
David Battistella said:
@ Blair

I'm curious about this a bit because I have thought about it a lot.
Would you even record recode RAW for these clients? (since they don't want it) Why waste the hard drive space? If you had to record REDCODE then Maybe all the RAW would be at 18:1 compression or something.
Click to expand...

Depends on the client and situation. Typically I would go ahead and record the RAW to cover my butt and just recycle the drive space sooner than later if I never hear from them again. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
Guys,

That is excellent news about SDI 4K output. It all depends on how soon this feature will be available. If anyone is curious to know about the Atomos Samurai's performance recording 10-bit ProRes 422 out of the Scarlet's SDI, keep an eye on Cinema5D.com. Sebastian, the main man, is going to test this at some point, I think he said this coming week.
 
I have two questions that I've been trying to find answers to regarding video output quality. They have to do with what's in this thread, so I'll ask them here.

- Is the HD-SDI or HDMI signal out of EPIC "higher quality?"
- And, is this the same case as with Scarlet?
 
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