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Advice for someone who has picked a Scarlet over film school

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Jarvis Alston

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Hello all,

My name is Jarvis Alston and I'm from Australia. I have decided to buy a Scarlet as opposed to going to film school because I have read over and over and heard from many of the hollywood heavyweights that the best way to get into the industry is to just grab a camera and go make some films. Kind of learn as you go. I think this is a great approach and after having just read Sidney Lumet's book I've gotten some good advice that filmmaking is basically just hoping that all the right "accidents" happen and you can piece them together to make a great film. Reason I want a scarlet is because if I do capture some of these "accidents" I want my footage to be festival ready, and the quality and affordability of the Scarlet is totally crazy!! I'm also teaching myself the use of Avid's media composer as well because I think that Apple is making some pretty big mistakes with Final Cut Pro.

I'm just reaching out and hoping that I can get some helpful advice from the experienced RED users on here to help me through this exciting time at the beginning of my film career.

I am working as an underground coal miner right now and it pays quite well so I have some income at my disposal and was wondering how it could best be spent. I will be moving to Toronto in 6 months and will be bringing the equipment I gather up with me.

I was wondering what sort of budget I should be setting myself to get started. I would like the Scarlet package, maybe one or two lenses to get me started, some sound recording devices and a purpose built editing computer along with an official copy of Media Composer 6. I was hoping that around $25K would be enough, is this reasonable?

Also I have a question regarding lenses, can a zoom lens be used as a 24mm, 50mm, 80mm etc. if its covered in the total span of the zoom itself? Could I spend my money on a really good quality zoom lens instead of buying 3 or 4 prime lenses? And what is the starting range for cinema lenses? Will a Scarlet still produce the same insane pictures with a lens that only costs a few hundred dollars? Or will it be like serving caviar with pepsi? If so, will the difference be really noticeable to people who are not familiar with lens choices and quality etc? Because to me right now, an image either looks amazing or it looks kind of bland.

I've also noticed that I'm pretty lost when it comes to lenses, where is a good place to begin learning about them? I haven't found any websites that are very helpful.

Thanks very much in advance for the support and I look forward to joining the community. Please don't hate on me too much for being a newbie, lol.

Jarvis
 
Dare I ask what your experience level is when it comes to video and film? While I applaud your choice...I did the same thing years ago...I've been toying with photography and making little crappy videos and films from the age of 8. I knew exactly what I wanted to do and where I wanted to take things. I went in with as much experience as an 18 year old can have. Diving in and buying gear and pressing "go" was a no brainer. I'll admit I visited some schools as well, but decided it wasn't for me.

Starting from nothing though...I personally wouldn't opt for a RED camera and your first foray into the world of filmmaking. As much as I hate them, if I were you I'd start small and cheap like a 7D and see if you even like doing this stuff. Invest in Canon glass and you can always get a Scarlet later. What if you end up hating this stuff? Just playing devil's advocate. A book, a dream, and some cash will not automatically make you a great filmmaker. Most films don't rely on accidents either, more so precision and planning.
 
Frist of all kudos for the underground coal mining thing... my granpa was a coalminer in Lancashire. Back in the days might have been harder but still hats off, it shows your determination.

Second, it's not the gear that is going to get you going in this line of work -as in may others- but the people. Save the money, especially if you're moving to a new place. If you don't have the contacts, your nice camera and edit suite is going to sit there gathering dust and depreciating like nothing else. I can not tell you how many young people I see that just put all their hopes in the bloody gear as if it was just like a magic wand that would turn them into cinematographers and directors and usually I don't even waste my breath telling them off because more then often they are rich kids. But if you earned the dough with your hard work my sincere advice is to wait, get a job on a film set, learn the people, steal from them the craft, go after work with them, show you're willing to learn, have a beer and learn from them about lenses, not goddamm forums.

Well, I'm sure you will not listen, but this was my two penny worth of adivce.
 
Hey Jarek,

I have done the same kind've thing. Just small short films with my friends for years since I first saw Jurassic Park. I know it looks bad, and I don't know how to tell you that I am well aware that just because I'm buying a hollywood grade camera does not make me a hollywood grade filmmaker. But I believe strongly in my talent and am working extremely hard to make this a reality. I know what I'd be thinking if I was reading someone else saying this stuff in a post ("Yeah right guy, whatever") but I do believe in myself.

I just want to know where to get started with the technical aspects of owning a red camera, lenses that will work etc. I basically need a little hand starting a shopping list of equipment that would be considered essential. I've got the opportunity and the income right now to be able to very comfortably afford this gear so I figure "why not?", because film and movies has been the strongest constant in my life so far.

Thanks very much for the advice.

Jarvis
 
Hey Bob,

Thanks very much for the advice. Yes it DEFINITELY was harder for your granpa and I have much respect for him, machinery has certainly made a lot of our work easier but its still definitely some hard yards to put in to make me appreciate whatever it is I choose to buy with my money.

I'm already feeling rejected by the community and its only been 15mins, lol. I didn't want to come across as a "rich kid" who thinks that buying the flashest camera will instantly make me a good filmmaker, I already know I'm a good filmmaker inside. I've been a story teller since I was a child and there is no better suited line of work for me. Its just words on a screen I know. I was hoping that I would be able to have some help compiling a list of essential equipment from some people experienced in all things RED, I think the choices of whether this is the best road for me to take is for me to decide. Everybody has to start somewhere, and I'm really working hard (27 days out of the month I work 12 hour shifts) so that I can buy and appreciate this equipment. If it sits there and gathers dust then you were totally right and I'll have to deal with that when it happens. But I can assure you that it isn't going to happen.

Could you tell me what you first bought when you crossed over to RED cameras? and what lenses you had to put on it? Also the specs of the computer you're editing on now would be excellent.

Thank you very much for your post. Appreciate it.

Jarvis
 
starting from the beginning means just take every job you possibly can and enter every film contest you possibly can. use those chances to build a reel. meet as many people as you can. follow through on everything you say you'll do.

I have a friend who started where you did - he took on every contest challenge he could find for about 3 years. he was the most ruthless critic of his own work who I have ever met and used every opportunity to learn. now he's shooting a Discovery series and has worked on a 3D Imax film.

it's possible, but you have to be talented, very mature, and have his level of self-critique. to this day, that guy never settles, never feels like he knows enough. you have to be hungry.

one suggestion: don't start from the place of "I already know I'm a good filmmaker inside" - start from the place of "I know nothing" and I am starved to learn and will spend every waking hour studying my craft and listening to good people.

you will get there. good luck.
 
Jarvis, I was struck by your post, so if you don’t mind, here is a recommendation.

I recommend two things that every filmmaker or aspiring filmmaker or anyone interested in Films should “Look and Read”. The Film “Singin' in The Rain” and the Book “The Name Above The Title”

First the film; “Singin' in the Rain” (1952) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singin'_in_the_Rain ) is film that covers the transition between the “Silent Years” and the beginning of the “Talkies”. It’s a fictional look at that period. It’s a “Must See Film” I highly recommend it. Like most of the great things that come out of Hollywood it was ignored, not till years later did it become one of Hollywood’s jewels, kind of what is happening to “Red”. http://www.filmsite.org/sing.html ). It was filmed in the old “Three Striped Technicolor” process, it makes for a very rich color film.

The other is the book; “The Name Above the Title”(http://www.amazon.com/Name-Above-Title-Frank-Capra/dp/0306807718 ) This word are from the Amazon.com citation; “Although Frank Capra (1897–1991) is best known as the director of It Happened One Night, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, You Can't Take It with You, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Arsenic and Old Lace, and It's a Wonderful Life, he was also an award-winning documentary filmmaker as well as a behind-the-scene force in the Director's Guild, the Motion Picture Academy, and the Producer's Guild. He worked with or knew socially everyone in the movie business from Mack Sennett, Chaplin, and Keaton in the silent era through the illustrious names of the golden age. He directed Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant, Gary Cooper, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Jean Harlow, Claudette Colbert, Bette Davis, and others. Reading his autobiography is like having Capra sitting in your living room, regaling you with his anecdotes. In The Name Above the Title he reveals the deeply personal story of how, despite winning six Academy Awards, he struggled throughout his life against the glamour, vagaries, and frustrations of Hollywood for the creative freedom to make some of the most memorable films of all time.”

It’s the autobiography a “Remarkable Film Pioneer” and “Director”, he was there when it all began in Hollywood, right at beginning, and he tells his story, which in a way is the story of the Hollywood of the time. Frank Rosario Capra (May 18, 1897 to September 3, 1991) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Capra ) He is the embodiment of the “Author” his name was “Above The Title”.

In the year that past I must have owned a dozen copies of the “Hard Cover Book”, but they never came back, funny how that happens when the book is really good. I must have read the book at least six times over the years. It reads like a novel, but it’s the autobiography of real man of the movies. I was born in Puerto Rico, at the age of Five, I started going to the Movies, and I’ve doing for the last Sixty-Five years, when I entered USC Film School in the 70s, it was like a refresher course. When I was a little boy they always knew where to find me, at the “Paramount Theater” where they played the Hollywood Film, or round the corner at the “Victoria” where they played the Saturday Morning Serials.

Humberto Rivera
 
I've worked on a lot of shoots where the DP used a zoom instead of a prime set to save time and sometimes money. I've heard RED's primes have the most bang for their buck, though I would go with Canon glass for the Scarlet. I think you could learn a lot renting out your camera with yourself as the tech or AC. I know it seems weird to buy a camera and then let other people shoot with it, but I think I've learned more on set watching more experienced others do than I did in school, though school was a good base knowledge for everything else.

You might want to post some of these questions individually in their specific forums, like asking about only Scarlet package things here, lenses in Cinematography, lens tests or here, editing computer in RED Wrokflow, audio in Audio, etc. I think sometimes people get turned off by posts that are just a bunch of questions at once, plus the experts in each of those categories read those forums, so I think you'll get better answers.

Good luck!
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
one suggestion: don't start from the place of "I already know I'm a good filmmaker inside" - start from the place of "I know nothing" and I am starved to learn and will spend every waking hour studying my craft and listening to good people.
Click to expand...

Also start from the place of "there have been many masters of the various artistic fields throughout history and all of them created works which provide inspiration for artists that have followed." If you don't want to study art, music, literature, and other artistic fields in a structured educational environment, that's up to you. But don't make the mistake of feeling you don't have to know anything about such things, because every director you ever want to work with will assume that you not only know about them, but have a pretty deep familiarity with their works, which will very often be used as artistic references.

Knowing how to operate the equipment and being good at it makes you a good equipment operator. It's having a point of view, understanding the classic principles of artistic expression, and being able to emotionally relate to characters and story that make you a filmmaker. That doesn't come from camera ownership, and it doesn't come from technical expertise. It comes from a much deeper understanding of human communication. I know that sounds like classical old-school bullshit to someone just starting out, but hopefully at some point you'll realize just how true it is.
 
Hi the following comments only relate to the Australian industry not Canadian.

I have worked in the production biz in Oz for a while. The film schools here,, unless Swinburn or AFTRS I believe are a waste of time . Even these 2 names are churning out so many graduates that the industry, the size it is, will have hard time employing all. So just because you complete a course doesn't mean you get a job. I have employed people without qualifications from the above institutions over their graduates because of one commodity its called ...experience.

If your working "the mines' your most probably more cashed up then most. Yes 25K sounds a realistic figure for a Scarlet set up, to a point. I would suggest you need to have a hard think about lenses & mounts, I'm sure others here can advise better than I on these matters.

However where I am heading here is you need "experience". So in addition to the 25K I would be squirrelling away additional dollars to allow for a period when you will not be getting paid. During this time I would do anything & everything to start working on productions, it will be a lowly position, you most probably will be doing it for free but so what your gaining experience. Start looking around right now, start door knocking right now, start making contacts right now, start learning how make fantastic cups of coffee, start being available 24 / 7...in other words start learning how to work in this business on the job. Make it happen & you will never look at a seam face again.
 
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Hey Jarvis,

Good post, I like your attitude! Where are you in Australia? The biggest thing you will need is a support network from those who have come before you. Volunteer your time with some talented people and you will learn very quickly. They will become a sounding board for your own work plus a great resource to answer questions as you go.

This is the most important thing you get from film school, an instant network for the future. You need to recreate this in the real world with not only a network of peers, but mentors.
 
M Most said:
Also start from the place of "there have been many masters of the various artistic fields throughout history and all of them created works which provide inspiration for artists that have followed." If you don't want to study art, music, literature, and other artistic fields in a structured educational environment, that's up to you. But don't make the mistake of feeling you don't have to know anything about such things, because every director you ever want to work with will assume that you not only know about them, but have a pretty deep familiarity with their works, which will very often be used as artistic references.

Knowing how to operate the equipment and being good at it makes you a good equipment operator. It's having a point of view, understanding the classic principles of artistic expression, and being able to emotionally relate to characters and story that make you a filmmaker. That doesn't come from camera ownership, and it doesn't come from technical expertise. It comes from a much deeper understanding of human communication. I know that sounds like classical old-school bullshit to someone just starting out, but hopefully at some point you'll realize just how true it is.
Click to expand...

This is fantastically good advice.

I'm 31 and have to say that listening to "old-school bullshit" like this... was one of the best things I ever did.

It can be very financially rewarding - because at some point the folks paying you... care about your having real visual skills. Skills to make something awesome that makes a client say wow. I'd say that if I didn't have artistic training / interest / knowledge of the arts... (just "boring" classical stuff but hugely useful :)... I'd be making about $75,000 less per year than I am now.

If you can combine that with strong technical knowledge AND strong relationships built with people AND hard work AND luck AND years of experience AND skill, you can make huge chunks of money.

Of course you could always do a more technical job - and with the right relationships, skill, experience, luck, etc make a killing.

But more importantly: it can also help you to make creative work that you can be proud of.

OK end soapbox. Pragmatic advice:

RE: Media Composer - if you want to save some money, find a friend with a copy of FCP used and trade it in. Or find an old copy of Media Composer or Xpress DV and then your upgrade fee is $600 - but beware the license transfer fee to get it moved over to your name. Check that first. Or find a guy who is a student and borrow his copy (students are allowed to buy it for $299 and have free upgrades for 4 years). Lots of students don't take advantage of this for some reason - probably because they are still just using a pirate copy of Final Cut Pro :P

RE: Equipment - you could always build a network of friends, find out what equipment they already have... and then purchase stuff that they're missing. Then you can lend your stuff to them and they lend their stuff to you.

I think that you should also get involved in other film productions - and see what equipment they use and what is most useful to them.

I also guarantee that if you shoot something on a RED Scarlet, without other equipment (lights, slider etc) and a team to help you... you will have your ass kicked every time by the guy with a DSLR but lights, slider, creative team (and money left over to buy the creative team food). Sorry to say.

Scarlet is useful to buy if you can then use it as a rallying call to get folks to help you - or lend it out to guys in exchange for favors, or rent it out for income, etc.

Basically if you're getting a Scarlet, you need to work hard to find people who are excited about the camera and then work together. In a vacuum, it's tough.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Hey Jarvis,

I think the best thing to do for you (since you already opted out of school), would be to make sure you get the Scarlet PL mount camera, and pick up a 18-85mm RED Pro zoom and some rod support support accessories. That will put you just about 25k with the kit scarlet, and then I'd put in just a few thousand extra dollars for some extra media (a 4 pack of 64 gb cards) and then you can spend about another 3k on a great quality gaming pc that you'll probably have to custom build so that you don't need to spend the money on a red rocket. Then you can hire a gapher who has their own lighting for a few jobs until you're able to buy your own. (probably about 10k before you have a good starting kit that you can use in most situations)

I know thats a little bit more than your budget but it will hold you over for a long time.
 
Film school rocks and is in large part why I'm successful in my career and personal life. It isn't for everyone and there are plenty of successful individuals without it too. First off, a degree is the most important thing someone can do in life and for your career and the perception to your clients, well your professional clients. You may find your circumstances different and want to get hired at a commercial office or advertising agency. Most agencies lately I deal with want Masters Degree people in the higher end positions. If you only want to freelance for someone else or own your own business, then it won't matter for employment, but will matter for yourself and your connections. Yes, to be on a film set you may not need anything but experience, but most paying jobs are not independent films except for the lucky few.

There is no real answer to this question, film school or not? I highly recommend film school or formal training myself as that is what I did and I know it worked for me overall. Maybe it is just my opinion as I see so many posers playing cinematographer these days with no real experience.

Shallow depth of field doesn't make a cinematographer. Training does, lighting does. These tools can be learned on set or in class. Your decision. To have the Scarlet with no training may not be the best option. If you have professional clients who will want that (i mentioned I bought one to an agency the other day and I could tell they didn't care, just that my worked stayed the same) then go for the purchase. Define your future with education/training regardless of which path you choose. Just my 2 cents today!!
 
since you've chosen your path, then go make films. Learn as you go. Too bad though, part of film school is working with like minded people, and making connections. Take the odd part-time course. I did some film school, then animation. My real school began when I bought a camera and plane ticket and shot my first documentary.
 
Jarvis Alston said:
I will be moving to Toronto in 6 months and will be bringing the equipment I gather up with me.
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Drop me a PM when you get to Toronto. Why not take delivery of your equip in Toronto? Why are you moving to Toronto? A Scarlet is better than film School, if you use your Scarlet to make films. If you don't use your equip it's useless. You can work in the Toronto Film industry to learn and pay the rent. You might be able to make a few bucks with your Scarlet as a Cinematographer.
 
I have to say, after reading most of this thread, that it saddens me that the majority of people on this forum seem to see the pursuit of cinematography as a trade, based around technology and technical skill, and not as an art, based on creative expression. I realize that Red is a camera company, but the point of technology in this case is to empower artistic expression, not to replace it. "Buy a camera" vs. "educate yourself" should never be the choice unless one sees the career as an operator and not as an artist. Not that there's anything wrong with either choice, it's just that I see too many here seem to want to be artists but are apparently unwilling to educate themselves in the arts, or see such an education as a waste of time. And that's a pity.

Just my .02.
 
M Most said:
I have to say, after reading most of this thread, that it saddens me that the majority of people on this forum seem to see the pursuit of cinematography as a trade, based around technology and technical skill, and not as an art, based on creative expression. I realize that Red is a camera company, but the point of technology in this case is to empower artistic expression, not to replace it. "Buy a camera" vs. "educate yourself" should never be the choice unless one sees the career as an operator and not as an artist. Not that there's anything wrong with either choice, it's just that I see too many here seem to want to be artists but are apparently unwilling to educate themselves in the arts, or see such an education as a waste of time. And that's a pity.

Just my .02.
Click to expand...
As much as I am a total equipment geek, I don't think I have ever agreed more with a post on this forum. The OP has obviously made up his own mind already but, if going to college - any college, including film school - is, for you, just about getting a "job," then by all means, forget it. But Mike is right, a camera is a tool while education forms the basis for a lifetime of learning and growth. I say buy a 7D and with the money you save on equipment, go to school. You've got 50+ years ahead of you to make films, why not make films AND go to school for the next few.
 
In my mind - when you get here (Toronto) by all means make your indy films… BUT meet as many people in the business as you can. This will mean that you probably should work in the local film prod business even if it's as a 3rd or 4th grip doing dailies, or a P.A. on commercial sets.

I've met a lot of guys who have great artistic vision; but they have learned in a vacuum on their own projects shot with friends and have no idea about how a 'pro' (and I hesitate to use that term but it fits) set works. Even if you want to be a Director or a DP there there is much to be said about starting at the bottom and learning the CRAFT of filmaking.
 
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