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Canon Vs Scarlett and why I held off on the click to order...

Adam Howden

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Ok, I hope this wont be too controversial but I've been looking at these two cameras (C300-Scarlett-X) all day. I've been eagerly awaiting their arrival for at least the last couple of months and now they're here. It truly was an exciting day spent in front of my macbook awaiting the next dribble of information on twitter from people there.

So which is the best fit, again like anything you can argue it from numerous different points of view until your blue in the face. Which is basically what I've been doing with myself all day long.

So the specs on the Scarlett-X are impressive, but what's miffing me are the record rates. I'm a little confused and I understand red need to keep it sufficiently distant from the Epic, ok so job done there. But these record options and the windowing of the sensor I find frustrating.

The Scarlett-X records 3K at up to 48 fps - Great. BUT for those of us in PAL countries we need 50 fps, sure we could pop down to 2K but by then, your putting on your widest lens which could be a little slower in your using stills lenses like a Zeiss, Canon or Nikon. Not to mention just having to do a lens change because you want to go off speed can be annoying and it takes time, precious time that can sometimes rob you of another take.

For example if you're on a production using HMIs and Fluro's and you want to go off speed then you really want to be able to go to at least 50 fps, am I right here.

Sure most HMI ballast's are flicker free these days but on indie productions - not always!

Finally, I'm confused about what my field of view would be is a 50mm a 50mm or is it something different? I guess the 4K at 24/25 fps option will be giving me something close to a true Super 35mm frame?

By my count once you kit this camera out it's coming pretty close to $20K just like the Canon, which I suspect may be a little cheaper when it hits the ground early next year at places like BHPhoto etc

There's also additional costs to consider, you'll need batteries at least 4x Red Bricks, the red volts don't pack much punch from my understanding. You'd need at least 4x 64gb Red mags, and some other bells and whistles. Not to mention you'll be burning a lot of data and you'll need a decent PC or MAC set up probably with a Red rocket card realistically to get the most out of it.

But on the other hand the Canon only shoots 1080 up to 30fps and up to 60fps at 720 - also pretty disappointing. By my count that really only leaves the Sony FS100 which though compressed can shoot at up to 50/60 fps in 1080 mode. The canon shoots to CF cards, something most of us have from our HD-SLR kits so that's a bonus for the canon camp, plus it will pretty much just pop straight onto your Zacuto or Red Rock style kit, where as the Scarlett-X she's a little heavier from my understanding?

There's a lot to consider when contemplating a new camera kit. Ultimately the question will always be return on investment.

P.S. I'm going from memory for most of the specs here but I should be pretty close, don't slam me too much if I've gotten a couple of things a little, let's say... off speed :-)
 
RED Scarlet is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than the Canon option, one word: REDCODE!

I am heading out to work now so I can´t go into detail, but this is a no brainer. RED wins!
 
Yeah but then again...if you work it right you get your money back correct? The thing I think you may have left out was Dragon. This is the key thing I'm pretty sure most people will forget given the flurry of details thats come out and decisions to be made but if its remebered, then you know the right path...

Make the money, upgrade to Dragon...and never think that you ended up screwed like you would be going with Canon...you may start with the 300 now but the 400 will be even better and theres another body you have to buy, not an upgrade and the firmware fixes will cost you if they are major ones, if I'm not wrong...

Yes you may want 50fps but if you can live without the 50fps or shooting at 2K to get that 50fps then your ok, survive it long enough,make the money and you can upgrade to something unbelievable. The upgrade though may cost you like 20K (speculating but we'll know in 2nd half 2012) but hey, like its said, work it right.

RAW footage also wins hands down like Eirik said. It's a fact that RAW is superior to whatever the hell canon is on...as far as I know they aren't filming RAW...so correct me if I'm wrong there...

for 15K (depending on where you go with the package) it will cost you less then the 20K...if you really want Scarlet all out filming it may push you towards 25K but hey, its up to you how well you can deal without some parts and so on...5K more for almost double the rez? 5K less for a pick up and shoot kit if you have the lenses? Its incredible and worth the purchase if you have the money and the understanding of what you would do with it and how to work around the limitations, like the one you pointed out, 50fps.
 
Thanks for your thoughts Imran, I'm foggy on the Dragon sensor could you please provide some more details? I remember it being mentioned a couple of years ago but I don't remember any of the details...
 
The Scarlett-X records 3K at up to 48 fps - Great. BUT for those of us in PAL countries we need 50 fps

Adam, may I point out that for us in PAL countries it makes hardly any difference whether the maximum framerate is 48fps or 50fps. Whatever is the framerate, in playback its 25fps in PAL countries. So, say you shoot for 5 seconds in 50/48fps. Then in case of shooting 50fps the playback takes 10 seconds, and in case of 48fps it takes 9,6 seconds. Guess, not many will be able tell the difference.
 
Adam, may I point out that for us in PAL countries it makes hardly any difference whether the maximum framerate is 48fps or 50fps. Whatever is the framerate, in playback its 25fps in PAL countries. So, say you shoot for 5 seconds in 50/48fps. Then in case of shooting 50fps the playback takes 10 seconds, and in case of 48fps it takes 9,6 seconds. Guess, not many will be able tell the difference.

Yes, but imagine we step forward in a few years to 50p, then what?
 
While not an exhaustive comparison: 1) c300 is a 4:2:2 8-bit compressed image at 50Mbps (that is megaBITS), Scarlet is Redcode RAW at 55MBps (megaBYTES = 440Mbits) = lots more information AND in RAW; 2) If you want to shoot for 1080 out, you have still way more options on the Scarlet to get there a) shoot 3k at 4:1 RAW and then crop in if you choose to, or have safe area for post stabilization for any shaky handheld without having to upres to get your 1080, OR 2k@25fps RC3:1 -- C300 @1080 up to 30fps, so in your case 25. No wiggle room without upres for crops or stabilization. Want 60fps? Scarlet can shoot it at 2k RC4:1; c300 @720.
 
There is no Comparison B/w C300 & Scarlet-X ... C300 is joke & S-X is a PRO CAM
 
Ok, I hope this wont be too controversial but I've been looking at these two cameras (C300-Scarlett-X) all day. I've been eagerly awaiting their arrival for at least the last couple of months and now they're here. It truly was an exciting day spent in front of my macbook awaiting the next dribble of information on twitter from people there.

So which is the best fit, again like anything you can argue it from numerous different points of view until your blue in the face. Which is basically what I've been doing with myself all day long.

So the specs on the Scarlett-X are impressive, but what's miffing me are the record rates. I'm a little confused and I understand red need to keep it sufficiently distant from the Epic, ok so job done there. But these record options and the windowing of the sensor I find frustrating.

The Scarlett-X records 3K at up to 48 fps - Great. BUT for those of us in PAL countries we need 50 fps, sure we could pop down to 2K but by then, your putting on your widest lens which could be a little slower in your using stills lenses like a Zeiss, Canon or Nikon. Not to mention just having to do a lens change because you want to go off speed can be annoying and it takes time, precious time that can sometimes rob you of another take.

For example if you're on a production using HMIs and Fluro's and you want to go off speed then you really want to be able to go to at least 50 fps, am I right here.

Sure most HMI ballast's are flicker free these days but on indie productions - not always!

Finally, I'm confused about what my field of view would be is a 50mm a 50mm or is it something different? I guess the 4K at 24/25 fps option will be giving me something close to a true Super 35mm frame?

By my count once you kit this camera out it's coming pretty close to $20K just like the Canon, which I suspect may be a little cheaper when it hits the ground early next year at places like BHPhoto etc

There's also additional costs to consider, you'll need batteries at least 4x Red Bricks, the red volts don't pack much punch from my understanding. You'd need at least 4x 64gb Red mags, and some other bells and whistles. Not to mention you'll be burning a lot of data and you'll need a decent PC or MAC set up probably with a Red rocket card realistically to get the most out of it.

But on the other hand the Canon only shoots 1080 up to 30fps and up to 60fps at 720 - also pretty disappointing. By my count that really only leaves the Sony FS100 which though compressed can shoot at up to 50/60 fps in 1080 mode. The canon shoots to CF cards, something most of us have from our HD-SLR kits so that's a bonus for the canon camp, plus it will pretty much just pop straight onto your Zacuto or Red Rock style kit, where as the Scarlett-X she's a little heavier from my understanding?

There's a lot to consider when contemplating a new camera kit. Ultimately the question will always be return on investment.

P.S. I'm going from memory for most of the specs here but I should be pretty close, don't slam me too much if I've gotten a couple of things a little, let's say... off speed :-)

I think even with the things you take issue with, if all the camera did was full 4K (let alone hdrx) and nothing else, it would still be so far ahead of everything else... GREED, in this case, is not good.
 
There is no Comparison B/w C300 & Scarlet-X ... C300 is joke & S-X is a PRO CAM

I would love to hate on the C300, in fact I did a little. I don't think the pricetag on it makes ANY sense with Scarlet out now, but the camera does create nice images.

http://vimeo.com/30215350
 
Yes, but imagine we step forward in a few years to 50p, then what?

Right, have to admit I did not think about the future and 50p and thus misinterpreted Adam's point. Still, in case of 50p the 3K/48fps is not useless if one accepts the 4% speedup. Guess in this respect PAL country people are in a better position than the NTSC ones. Another issue is, how long broadcasting will stay as it is now and when it will go to the internet. When so perhaps PAL/NTSC etc. will be replaced by a new new global standard.

What comes to the C300, for me it seems it will have quite an uphill battle with Scarlet-X. Or, as one friend of mine use to say "Good luck and best wishes".
 
Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I guess what I'm talking about with the 50fps is the shutter speed. When you run the shutter at double the frame rate which is what you could call a standard you would theoretically get strobing on fluro lights and potentially HMIs. In a PAL country if you want to run off speed you would generally choose say 33.333 fps or 50 fps and so at 48 fps we miss out on the 2nd higher rate - at 3K. Seems like a bit of an over sight and a little NTSC focused I guess is my point. I'm not so concerned with the loss of the 4% slow down it's more the option of versatility in 3K as I'm not too concerned with shooting in 2K :-)
 
I would love to hate on the C300, in fact I did a little. I don't think the pricetag on it makes ANY sense with Scarlet out now, but the camera does create nice images.

http://vimeo.com/30215350

Yeap its great ... But it depends on Person behind the cam ... With proper Lighting & setup even cheap can give great quality ... Its all about creativity & lightening
 
Thanks Paul, I don't think I'm being greedy in having an open discussion on the pro's and con's of these camera systems :-)
 
These problems of framerates are nonsense to me ! Why would we need 50fps. Lots of documentaries are shot on 24fps and projected in 24fps in europe! So 48 is no problem ! :smiley:
 
A Scarlet with the pro audio module also has XLRs, and it still has all the other things that make it better, too... no way is Canon going to come outta this looking good... the alexa and F65 look pretty pricey now, even more so
 
Here's Vincent Laforet during yesterday's Canon event:

http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/11/vincent-laforet-talks-about-the-c300/

Here's where I have a prob with the Canon: RED cameras allow you to change the mounts; Canon makes you buy EITHER a PL camera version or a Canon camera version.

I like the internal ND filter concept, but I have to see the quality of it first. The XLRs are nice, but I have a SOUND DEVICES MIXPRE-D (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MixPre-D/) and couldn't be happier with my setup. Glad I put down a deposit on Scarlet-X and looking forward to Dragon and a Nikon mount from RED.
 
The Canon is a nice camera. Its an F3 competitor. I might even give that it can have slightly better low light and dynamic range than the Scarlet. The problem I have with it is simple: Its a camera you'll pay 20k, or16k, or whatever, and that will be it- no more improvements, no sensor upgrades, no new modules... The next camera you would buy would need you another 16K or more. You already can see what that camera will come up with: T the H264 Intra codec or the Motion JPEG 4K encoding. And what will that make your one year or two years old camera? Exactly. Obsolete. The Scarlet, like Jim Jannard said, is a modular, future proof, obsolescence obsolete camera: you'll get Red's commitment to improve, more features (hopefully), and the possibility to upgrade your sensor. Its not gonna be cheap, but it should be much cheaper than buying a 16K new camera. And you get to keep all your modules and support equipment. That concept in itself is the big winner. Its a camera system created with the costumer in mind. One can only applaud this approach.

And, of course, the Scarlet current specs are spectacular: Red One MX level spectacular.
 
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