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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSMC is not going to happen...

Jarred Land said:
Yes.. on the side handle there is an X-sync port for triggering long duration flashes.
Click to expand...

Hi Jarred

Can you recommend some long duration flash makes/models?

Thanks
E
 
One of my biggest questions in all of this is the problem of producing sharp stills with a model leaping around a studio. Excuse my ignorance but could someone please explain

"Now with EPIC and HDRX you can shoot one track for motion, and use the HDRX shorter shutter track for sharp stills"

If that works - WOW because that has been my only issue about using this camera for both. My clients want stills from motion this could hopefully be the last piece of information I need in the jigsaw.
 
Iain Philpott said:
One of my biggest questions in all of this is the problem of producing sharp stills with a model leaping around a studio. Excuse my ignorance but could someone please explain

"Now with EPIC and HDRX you can shoot one track for motion, and use the HDRX shorter shutter track for sharp stills"

If that works - WOW because that has been my only issue about using this camera for both. My clients want stills from motion this could hopefully be the last piece of information I need in the jigsaw.
Click to expand...

Me to!

That’s exactly what I would like to know, especially the model/talent leaping about the studio (scenario)?

Would love to hear a little more about the length or breadth of the “shorter shutter” track for stills too.

So we are looking for very crisp high res shots that would be used in a “key framed” type of way.

AND.. can that ‘shorter” shutter track be stereo synched? Can that be synchronized between multiple pairs of cameras?

In some cases one might need the rolling shutter look even in a visual effect for continuity with a “regular” sequence. But for a lot of applications a crisp strobe like or “global shutter” ish effect would be extremely useful. [I know a couple of years ago Jim made the point a lot of mechanical shutters that you might use in a particular camera are not really THAT global]. I too am interesting in the “frozen” upside down skateboarder scenario where pretty serious motion is absolutely frozen. The question is with the “shutter track” for sharp stills what then is the maximum interval for continuous sharp “non rolled” super still stills?

I wonder if one of the roadmap “surprises” might be a mechanical shutter and optical viewfinder for EPIC etc. It was interesting to see SONY’s “cinematic” offering (oh shut up ERIC!...) with a mechanical shutter to achieve a more global shuttered effect, somehow the mechanical shutter “trims” up the “rolliness” of the image?

So any technical or practical explanations perhaps from the horse’s mouth would be wonderful.

Cheers,

Eric
 
continuous lighting

In the past on some architecturally related shoots and recording projects we had to use strobe and flash etc. as film and TV style continuous lighting with huge banks of overrun lights or arc etc, and thick cables running everywhere and noisy generators tearing everything up was not an option. I am intrigued as to what the clean extra sensitivity of the CMOS style chip and LED type lighting could achieve? The idea of practical continuous lighting is intriguing I must say.

Ta.

Eric
 
"If the exposure is 48 Fps with a 270 degree shutter the +1 HDRx mode will yield a 135 degree shutter." Stephen Williams

NOTE: Double the 270 degree shutter would be 540 degrees, NOT 135 degree shutter that would be half the shutter speed. If that were the case there would be more “Motion Blur” not the intended circumstance. A 135 degree shutter is actually -1 while a 540 degree shutter is +1.

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
"If the exposure is 48 Fps with a 270 degree shutter the +1 HDRx mode will yield a 135 degree shutter." Stephen Williams

NOTE: Double the 270 degree shutter would be 540 degrees, NOT 135 degree shutter that would be half the shutter speed. If that were the case there would be more “Motion Blur” not the intended circumstance. A 135 degree shutter is actually -1 while a 540 degree shutter is +1.

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

Humberto: You are the one who misunderstands. HDRx setting +1 means you are capturing 1 full stop lower exposure, in order to capture 1 more stop of highlights. This means a 2x faster shutter speed (in stills terms) or 1/2 the shutter angle. The x-track is always DARKER and needs to have exposure boosted in RED CINE-X order to look normal.

Regarding stills extracted from the x-track for fast motion like skateboarding. It seems to me that any x-track still would have the same rolling shutter skew as the same frame from the A-track, though without the motion blur. That may or may not be a problem. While RED may not want to explain why this is so in detail (since it might give away too mush about how HDRx works and how/how fast their sensors read data), this explanation is consistent with the need for long-duration strobes (i.e. use Nikon/Canon/Vivitar, etc speedlights at your own risk - unless they are on high-speed-synch, which might not give consistent or desired results).
 
Thank Steve, you’re right I’m confuse and remain confuse for now, I have to think about this a while longer.

Humberto Rivera
 
No problema, amigo. I wanted to make sure this was corrected since a lot of new people have been attracted to the forum by the Nov. 3 news.
 
Hi Steve,
As one of the new people here can I just ask if in really simple terms if I have this right. The EPIC will allow me to record one track of video that I would use in a conventional way + one track to be used to pull the stills from?
 
Steve Wake said:
Humberto: You are the one who misunderstands. HDRx setting +1 means you are capturing 1 full stop lower exposure, in order to capture 1 more stop of highlights. The x-track is always DARKER and needs to have exposure boosted in RED CINE-X order to look normal.

.
Click to expand...
Like Humberto, this seemed counter-intuitive for me as well. And like Humberto, this continues my confusion. :undecided::confused5:
 
Pardon my continued persistence in this matter, as I wrote in a previous post! “The “A” track is the primary exposure track, as if shooting regular well exposed film. The “X” track is selected in portions of +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, and +6 it’s twice to shutter speed to six times depending on the number setting for the “X” track. Both the “A” and “X” tracks are on a single R3D frame. (Recorded Simultaneously) The camera is using the normal 24 frames per second settings set in the “A” track; ONLY the SHUTTER SPEED for the “X” TRACK is the one CHANGING VALUES. All the rest of the options are in post-production.”

A QUESTION! Is the faster shutter speed a lower value; 135 degree shutter at +1 or is it 540 degree shutter speed?

Humberto Rivera
 
+1 would be a narrower shutter... or a shorter shutter duration. I.E if you shot 1/48 on your normal track, +1 on the HDRX track would be 1/96.
 
That's the way I always understood it... I guess it's the terminology that gets confusing.
 
Perhaps you are confused because you are thinking of it in the same way you set exposure compensation on your DSLR. If that is the case, it should be easy enough to remember that HDRX is the opposite. It may be best however to remember it for what it is; highlight protection via shutter.
 
Jarred Land said:
+1 would be a narrower shutter... or a shorter shutter duration. I.E if you shot 1/48 on your normal track, +1 on the HDRX track would be 1/96.
Click to expand...

Hi Jarred,
Just been doing a little search re shooting stills with the EPIC and I can't seem to find anything on getting the best workflow re shutter angles etc. Coming from a stills background I'm feeling a little lost on this! Or if there is a tutorial?

Many thanks

Iain
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Pardon my continued persistence in this matter, as I wrote in a previous post! “The “A” track is the primary exposure track, as if shooting regular well exposed film. The “X” track is selected in portions of +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, and +6 it’s twice to shutter speed to six times depending on the number setting for the “X” track. Both the “A” and “X” tracks are on a single R3D frame. (Recorded Simultaneously) The camera is using the normal 24 frames per second settings set in the “A” track; ONLY the SHUTTER SPEED for the “X” TRACK is the one CHANGING VALUES. All the rest of the options are in post-production.”

A QUESTION! Is the faster shutter speed a lower value; 135 degree shutter at +1 or is it 540 degree shutter speed?

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

If you are shooting the A-track at 270 degrees and have a HDRx setting of +1, the equivalent shutter of the x track will be 135 degrees. That is, the exposure of the x-track will be 1 EV lower at a setting HDRx setting of +1. BUT, HDRx does not take two separate exposures, one after the other. RED has not been clear on EXACTLY how HDRx exposes the x-track, but as more info comes out about things like a need for long-duration strobes, it seems pretty clear that it reads the sensor line-by-line twice. The mechanical equivalent would be to have two sets of shutter curtains - each generating its own exposure and swiping across the sensor at the same time. Of course, this would be physically impossible since the narrower curtain would determine actual exposure, but that's the magic of digital.

So, skew would be the same in the A and X-tracks, while motion blur would be different.

Also, since the +1, +2, +3, etc. settings refer to EXPOSURE VALUES or additional EVs of highlight capture, the effect on equivalent shutter speed is exponential. +1 cuts shutter speed of the primary A-Track in half (270 degrees -->135 degrees), +2 is 1/4 shutter speed (270-->62.5), +3 is 1/8 shutter speed (270-->31.25), etc.

HDRx was primarily designed to extend DR in motion. The fact that you could use stills from the x-track to freeze motion came out pretty early in the theoretical discussion that ensued when HDRx was announced. The ability to do this well is also enhanced by another feature of RED, which is that ISO is metadata. This means you can take an underexposed still frame from the x-track, and boost ISO in RED CINE-X and come up with a normally exposed still. Of course there wil be limits to this, but pretty amazing!
 
As far as I understand, there's no such thing as a 540 shutter. This is shutter angle, not shutter speed.
A normal 180 degree shutter is half of 360 degrees, which means the shutter speed is half the frame rate, i.e. 1/48 at 24fps. If you're shooting +1, you're getting one less stop of light. So, half the light, half the shutter angle (90deg.), twice the shutter speed (1/96).
 
Thanks Steve, half of a 270 degree shutter angle is 135 shutter degree angle. Pretty simple when you think about it.

Humberto Rivera
 
Steve Wake said:
If you are shooting the A-track at 270 degrees and have a HDRx setting of +1, the equivalent shutter of the x track will be 135 degrees. That is, the exposure of the x-track will be 1 EV lower at a setting HDRx setting of +1. BUT, HDRx does not take two separate exposures, one after the other. RED has not been clear on EXACTLY how HDRx exposes the x-track, but as more info comes out about things like a need for long-duration strobes, it seems pretty clear that it reads the sensor line-by-line twice. The mechanical equivalent would be to have two sets of shutter curtains - each generating its own exposure and swiping across the sensor at the same time. Of course, this would be physically impossible since the narrower curtain would determine actual exposure, but that's the magic of digital.

So, skew would be the same in the A and X-tracks, while motion blur would be different.

Also, since the +1, +2, +3, etc. settings refer to EXPOSURE VALUES or additional EVs of highlight capture, the effect on equivalent shutter speed is exponential. +1 cuts shutter speed of the primary A-Track in half (270 degrees -->135 degrees), +2 is 1/4 shutter speed (270-->62.5), +3 is 1/8 shutter speed (270-->31.25), etc.

HDRx was primarily designed to extend DR in motion. The fact that you could use stills from the x-track to freeze motion came out pretty early in the theoretical discussion that ensued when HDRx was announced. The ability to do this well is also enhanced by another feature of RED, which is that ISO is metadata. This means you can take an underexposed still frame from the x-track, and boost ISO in RED CINE-X and come up with a normally exposed still. Of course there wil be limits to this, but pretty amazing!
Click to expand...


If there was a way to take care of skew one way or another (rather than just amping up the frame rate) that would be super useful for VFX and other technical applications. I’m still thinking in terms of various rotating mechanical shutter analogies… Whatever they have to roll out, it will be super interesting and hopefully super useful for the more “S-ish” end of the DSMC concept and implementation.

Ta.

Eric
 
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