Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

News...

My hunches:

I don't think Scarlet Fixed will be too different than the last specs released by RED would suggest. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they have made more improvements on the way to production, but I personally believe 4k right out of the gate is unlikely. As other posters have pointed out, RED considers the ability to upgrade a priority. One possibility is that all of the lenses designed for Scarlets, both Fixed and Cinema, have an image circle that will accommodate a slightly larger sensor than 2/3". If that's the case, they could offer an upgrade to a S16 or similar sized sensor that offers 3.5k or maybe even 4K. Or maybe they'll offer a sensor upgrade to 3.5k or 4K while staying at 2/3". At any rate, a sensor upgrade down the road of some kind for Scarlets would not surprise me.

I'm hesitant to say that the Epic S has been axed. Remember, that camera started as a Scarlet. Perhaps it's just been brought back under the Scarlet banner once more.

Just hunches.
 
In other words their competitors will be competing with RED’s second and third tier products and won’t have any chance of touching Red’s top tier new offerings.
Click to expand...
There have been numerous electronic cameras aimed at high fidelity large screen presentation made by Sony, NHK and Ikegami.
From Sony you should consider the hdvs system, F900 series, F23, Genesis and F35 as generational products. So the f65 is at least six generation.
I'd argue they lacked Jims passion to really deliver the goods over the years, despite their infrastructure and ability to shift large numbers of boxes, I suggest that they relied on market research in the late nineties that their was only 450 35mm film cameras available to rent in the western world from Arri and Panavision.
RED has shown the world that their are thousands of customers eager to own a full frame sensor camera, but don't underestimate the depth of experience by the other players.



Mike Brennan
 
Its impossible to not be tempted to speculate. Its a sign that this is a very desirable product.

What I won't forget is Jim's words of "The camera you want is later this year" and "whatever changes is for the better". This was in an Epic-S thread. So until now, and this I can see from the enormous support Red has from its userbase, RED has delivered. And since I don't have reasons to think otherwise, i think they will, again. . I'm committed to wait for "the explosion". Its just a hassle to wait and miss out using RED in some very important jobs I have coming...
 
David Dennis said:
Scarlet is still in the road map, and there were prototypes floating around a month or two ago that looked suspiciously close to production, so I'm pretty sure we will in fact have a fixed lens Scarlet. I would not be surprised if it wound up being 4K, because Jim would just love that kind of breakthrough. But we should not count on it, because of those prototypes we've all seen. Major modifications this close to production would be tricky. On the other hand, the last we heard of Scarlet is that something had to do with the lens, which might be consistent with a new sensor technology being used. So who knows?
Click to expand...

If it is as stated, a common architechture between scarlet and epic back ends, then with natural performance increases then it should be easy to upgrade present design to a higher resolution sensor, if a suitable one is available. Changing format is another issue, that may incure significant structural and lens design changes, but presumably not as much as upgrading the sensor design.

About future changes, at the start I read the situation, a cheaper s35mm format would compete with now Epic sales, what was needed was a non competing single or two models, there were too many models. Sony and others now have cheap performance 4/3rds and full frame 35mm versions, that only require free hacks to get to more premium levels of encoding, maybe even 4k eventually. A single scarlet camera canbe made to take ff35mm, 35mm, 16mm, 2/3rds and even 4/3rds lens, through an adaptor. Or it could be maximum of s35, or 4/3rds, or s16, which is now less "sexy". Whatever lens format you own you can use with the right multi-adaptor. If you want to do stills you take out your ff35 lens, or 4/3rds, if you want to shoot movies you take out your s35 s16 or new 4/3rds. If you want to go guerilla run and gun you go and attach a 2/3rds lens. Each camera comes with a full featured Red single manual, wired and auto lens of the maximum format, or 16mm/2/3rds. ff35 is just stills at 8k (epic gets video rates), s35 is windowed smaller and does upto 25 or 50fps (epic gets whatever rate red can through at it) and etc down the formats in window size and increases in framerates. A more convenient solution is to do 4/3rds 4k and window s16 and 2/3rds 2k, model instead. The reality is that many sub 4/3rds sized lens might be lucky to even reach full HD resolution properly, requiring to buy new lens anyway. One or two (fixed) models us all that is needed raising model specific volumes bringing down costs.

I kept quiet about concerns a lot, because I did not want to sabotage the camera's chances. But now Jim seems to have indicated confirmation these things are changing, so we hope, we'll see what his vision is.
 
Michael Brennan said:
There have been numerous electronic cameras aimed at high fidelity large screen presentation made by Sony, NHK and Ikegami.
From Sony you should consider the hdvs system, F900 series, F23, Genesis and F35 as generational products. So the f65 is at least six generation.
I'd argue they lacked Jims passion to really deliver the goods over the years, despite their infrastructure and ability to shift large numbers of boxes, I suggest that they relied on market research in the late nineties that their was only 450 35mm film cameras available to rent in the western world from Arri and Panavision.
RED has shown the world that their are thousands of customers eager to own a full frame sensor camera, but don't underestimate the depth of experience by the other players.



Mike Brennan
Click to expand...

From a distance I would agree with you.

However, with RED systems there was and still is a very specific design intent and requirement. I.e. develop an instrument that can generate imagery to rival 35mm (now we are looking at imagery that rivals 65/70mm). For Red to accomplish this they HAD to solve very specific and key problems in an entirely new way. The five generations of products that you cite did not solve these specific problems to meet the requirement. For our applications (and also my eye) the “digital” offerings (essentially significantly below a notional 4k or actual 4k) are insufficient. So the new SONY F65 I don’t consider (in terms of image acquisition) a direct descendant of the hdvs, F900 series, F23, Genesis and F35 (as you mention) as they have had to go to a radically different architecture to meet the requirement (even though their De-Bayer on a slant may be more RED-ish than most people would like to think). It really isn’t the case of just shove in more photosites/pixles and crank the handle faster. The build quality and design of the earlier SONY camera units and electronics is excellent, but that can only carry you so far.

So it’s pretty clear that 4k has become the first major requirement or stick in the sand, for all of the various companies to overcome or achieve. It has taken some time for this to happen, and to be honest I don’t think it would have happened so soon had it not been for RED. Now Jim is sticking a second stick in the sand at the measured 6k mark. That is why the SONY marketing department is so desperate to have people believe their Q67 diagonal arrangement viewed from a rather odd perspective is 8k.

I think basically the whole design requirement for what constitutes a “cinematic” camera has changed substantially.

I guess what I’m saying here is even if SONY “camera” division has Jim’s passion, (“SONY” are not dullards) they did not solve the key problems and to my mind didn’t take the requirement seriously; Jim, on the other hand did. I think the problem was that the natural assumption that was made was that SONY (for example) could just make incremental improvements to their digital acquisition systems and everything would be OK, but a bit like the sound barrier a different approach was required to overcome such technical obstacles. (You can’t break the sound barrier with a piston driven aircraft, no matter how powerful and well built the engine might be…)

I do agree with what you wrote: (Mike Brennen)

“RED has shown the world that their are thousands of customers eager to own a full frame sensor camera, but don't underestimate the depth of experience by the other players.”

Ta.

Eric
 
Lorenzo Straight said:
Wish i worked at Red, even taking out the garbage, giving tours, whatever:)
Click to expand...
After reading the "FUN" thread, I'm kinda glad I don't. Sure it would be exciting and rewarding, but those guys don't sleep... I gotta have my sleep.:Yawn:
 
As mentioned before, the Sony F3 market is where RED needs to strike next. Epic-X at $30k goes after the big boys. Those thinking about an Alexa, F65, might be swayed into going Epic. Now the F3 market at around $15k? Not sure how many of those folks would even consider a 2/3rds camera like the Scarlet. Regardless of resolutions the chip size can still turn them away. The proposed Epic-S would fit the gap nicely. The F3 is a great camera, editing a commercial shot on it now. If RED wasn't around, this would be my next cam. However, put it side by side with a S35 sized 5k sensor with RAW recording in a modular compact design? No contest. This cam would kill in the sub $20k market. RED knows this, they aren't stupid. Now, we just wait for them to strike.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
As mentioned before, the Sony F3 market is where RED needs to strike next. Epic-X at $30k goes after the big boys. Those thinking about an Alexa, F65, might be swayed into going Epic. Now the F3 market at around $15k? Not sure how many of those folks would even consider a 2/3rds camera like the Scarlet. Regardless of resolutions the chip size can still turn them away. The proposed Epic-S would fit the gap nicely. The F3 is a great camera, editing a commercial shot on it now. If RED wasn't around, this would be my next cam. However, put it side by side with a S35 sized 5k sensor with RAW recording in a modular compact design? No contest. This cam would kill in the sub $20k market. RED knows this, they aren't stupid. Now, we just wait for them to strike.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
 
Elsie N said:
After reading the "FUN" thread, I'm kinda glad I don't. Sure it would be exciting and rewarding, but those guys don't sleep... I gotta have my sleep.:Yawn:
Click to expand...

pussy :)

heh heh heh.
 
Elsie N said:
Someday you guys are gonna run outta Red Bull. someday.
Click to expand...
I might be breaking an NDA here, but I think you guys should know that Jim headed up a cloning project that has made huge strides. They were able to clone Jarred, Deanan , Graeme, Ted, etc. That's how they're able to juggle all the stuff they are dealing with and yet still manage to get out of the office, travel, shoot, etc. Oh, and the Reduser versions of Jim, Jarred, etc. are all a complex algorithm that has been programmed to know how to respond to a wide variety of personalities on this site.

Pretty amazing stuff. Again, I'll probably get banned for breaking the NDA on this but thought you guys should know. When Jim says they are doing mind blowing stuff, it doesn't always have to relate to cameras. :-)
 
Elsie N said:
Someday you guys are gonna run outta Red Bull. someday.
Click to expand...

Maybe Jim and Jarred ship a few Epics to Red Bulls Media House. Red Bull is running a tv-station called ServusTV. After that they will never run outta Red Bull :-)
 
If RED would be in car making business, then The Others would be talking if the next model should be hybrid or electric car, gas or more efficient gasoline..while RED would be making flying cars that run on fun or CO2..
 
Come friendly dust bunnies and settle here…
…
…
...
...

[Cue: tumble weed and lone chirping cricket…]
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
…
...
...
...

...


...

Just exactly how much dust is supposed to settle first?
...
...

...


(They must be busy prepping in usual fashion.)
 
Matthias Hutter said:
If you read the whole presentation, Sony isn't really addressing only the professional cinema market (link)

Sony has a dominant position in the CCD imaging sensor market. Most of the compact camera sensors and a big portion of DSLR/CSC Sensors (Nikon, Pentax, Sony α) are fabricated by Sony.
They want to maintain their position and expand in the mobile phone camera market as they shift to BSI-CMOS sensors (Sony Exmor R).
Even if RED would dominate the professional video camera market, I doubt that they could beat Sony in imaging sensor fabrication soon.

marketsharer7uw.jpg

sharec7ww.jpg

But you never know...

Matt
Click to expand...

I will post the updated version of these graphs in 2016....just be patient ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top