Really?

[Bob Torrance]

You closed the Epic streak flaring thread without comment? Thats fine but I am being asked by clients about this. What should I say?

Sheesh

 

[Jannard]

Not sure who closed it or why...

Jim

You closed the Epic streak flaring thread without comment? Thats fine but I am being asked by clients about this. What should I say?

Sheesh

 

[paulherrin]

the whole thing is kind of silly. folks sure are in a hurry to make a big deal about an occurrence that's been around for ages (see my post on 2001: A Space Odyssey, or just watch it, for starters). this is not a deal breaker you should get your clients hopped up about. just like with any other camera, there are ways of avoiding this and working around the physics involved. my guess is that there are particular lenses that exhibit this phenomena of light more apparently than others. you will do much better performing those tests and figuring out how to avoid (or create) a gate flare when called upon.

not saying we shouldn't all be looking into this and come to a better understanding of this on ALL camera systems, because we certainly should. but that doesn't mean we need to worry ourselves to death... as everyone has mentioned, this is not a new surprise, but we do need to keep in mind that the higher resolution of the Epic is pushing our lens systems towards the max right now, so more apparent lens "issues" are to be expected. don't panic.

 

[David-Kramer]

Not sure who closed it or why...

Jim

is it possible to Delete a tread? How?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not sure who closed it or why...

Jim

Neither am I. Since I've now got two PM's about it. Didn't know it was closed until someone asked me.

I'm going to leave it closed for the moment in case it was Jarred or there's a reason I missed.

 

[Matt Uhry]

the whole thing is kind of silly. folks sure are in a hurry to make a big deal about an occurrence that's been around for ages (see my post on 2001: A Space Odyssey, or just watch it, for starters).

Just because gate flare has been around since sprocket holes does not mean that it was a good or desirable thing and that it should just be lived with.

Shiny parts in the sensor cavity are going to mess things up now and then, but it's generally a low tech, easy fix.

Not sure why the thread got whacked, the people on it are all good contributors and the discussion was reasonable and helpful.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Shane Kelly]

the whole thing is kind of silly. folks sure are in a hurry to make a big deal about an occurrence that's been around for ages (see my post on 2001: A Space Odyssey, or just watch it, for starters). this is not a deal breaker you should get your clients hopped up about. just like with any other camera, there are ways of avoiding this and working around the physics involved. my guess is that there are particular lenses that exhibit this phenomena of light more apparently than others. you will do much better performing those tests and figuring out how to avoid (or create) a gate flare when called upon.


not saying we shouldn't all be looking into this and come to a better understanding of this on ALL camera systems, because we certainly should. but that doesn't mean we need to worry ourselves to death... as everyone has mentioned, this is not a new surprise, but we do need to keep in mind that the higher resolution of the Epic is pushing our lens systems towards the max right now, so more apparent lens "issues" are to be expected. don't panic.

Paul, try telling a client " it's kind of silly". It's an issue, it should be discussed so it can be avoided or fixed. Some of us make a living with our cameras and are responsible for assuring that the images being recorded are the ones that the client pays us for. Whether it's a lens issue, as you seem to suggest, or a camera issue, I would like to know.

 

[Lucas Hall]

Paul, try telling a client " it's kind of silly". It's an issue, it should be discussed so it can be avoided or fixed. Some of us make a living with our cameras and are responsible for assuring that the images being recorded are the ones that the client pays us for. Whether it's a lens issue, as you seem to suggest, or a camera issue, I would like to know.

I was at a prep with an Epic camera owner/DP today and was pointed to reduser to look at the streak thread. The drama on that thread spooked the director and another rental house was called to bring in an alexa, red1, and f3 to compare.

Long story short, after comparing Alexa, Red1, and F3, they were able to induce flares in all the cameras.
F3 flared quite easily but with narrow flares and the light in a different position.
Alexa had a very broad flare that was all over the frame and more spread out. Big time loss of contrast.
Red1 was a tighter flare than Epic

It turned out to be a big waste of everyones time and stress on the owner/dp who
was going to lose his kit rental because of that thread.

I will get images ok'd to post after their shoot wraps.

It's red owners stirring things up or owners of other cameras?

 

[Adam Eden]

I think I need to repeat myself....

When you have a lot of lights in shot as backlights/ pracs etc.. You cannot frame the flares out by adjusting eyebrows, using matts etc.
I mainly shoot TV commercials and music videos, and a lot of the time I can fix the problem by moving lights. I uploaded a link to a perfect example of how i couldn't flag it out.

Lucas.. I have actually lost work because of this. Not when i have been shooting as I can try and work around it. I actually own an EPIC M and a RED MX.. I don't want to cause anyone the loss
of income as I am in the same situation.

Its when other very senior and well respected DOP's hire my equipment and complain about it... Then I have a problem.

So everyone stop the constant bickering and someone please make a solution. I am getting sick of getting called out as .. Use a matt box or flag it out.. I have been shooting for 20 years now and i know what i am doing.

I dont care what or how Arri/ Sony or any other camera on the market flares.. I care about my investment in RED and their products, and certainly I can make my RED one flare like a bitch and I normally do in the case of music videos. But this is different, I can pull my RED ONE MX out of my truck and shoot with that to intercut with my EPIC for those certain scenes, but not everyone has the luxury.

 

[Lucas Hall]

Lucas.. I have actually lost work because of this. Not when i have been shooting as I can try and work around it. I actually own an EPIC M and a RED MX.. I don't want to cause anyone the loss
of income as I am in the same situation.

Based on my experience today you're making it worse for yourself as that streak thread did for our DP. Might be better to ask red directly?

 

[Mark Toia]

I'm sure this is a real issue for some... and Im sure RED will address it, but I will sadly miss it.
I had it with my ARRI 435, liked it then, like i now...

But for the people that like perfect, clean images with hard light sources on the edges of frame.. Then I suggest you don't ever shoot anamorphics.

I think this thread is becoming a storm in a tea cup.

But that said, I think RED do need to share there intentions for those few that are annoyed with the flare.
If it is a upgrade, I wont be optioning for it. ... hey but thats only me. ))))

 

[David Battistella]

When a thread gets closed it's best to let the discussion die off. When new threads get opened and the same issue gets discussed it tends to close up pretty quickly.

The users are split down the middle on whether this is an issue. Half think it's a big problem and the others kinda like it.

The thread gets headed in the wrong direction when people start dissing people's professionalism or imply that they don't know what they are doing, or by dismissing their concerns as no problem at all.

With a new tool, the EPIC out there people are going to test things and compare things, like they would with new glass.

The EPIC compared to the RED one is displaying this "characteristic" and some people want to see that adjusted, find the source and adjust it, some see it and like it.

The point really is to have a respectful discussion and don't piss on people's opinion or professionalism no matter what side you are on.

To me, there may be times when this is desirable or undesirable. If it's not wanted then I want the quick intelligent solution to eliminating the characteristic.

David.

 

[Mark Toia]

Agree

 

[Warwick Brown]

For what it is worth I aways understood this issue to be related to the lens being used not the camera.

 

[David Battistella]

Mark showed great examples of gate flare in the thread on the R1 and on 35mm film

Lens flare = caused by the the angle light enters the lens.
Gate flare = how light can be reflected by the gate in 35mm film or the area around a CMOS sensor.

Lenses have flare characteristics and gates of different CMOS sensor cameras have gate flare characteristics.

The EPIC, RI, Alexa, etc. All have different gate flare characteristics.

There are strategies that do and do not involve a standard matte box to minimize gate flare. That is what the productive part of the other thread was.

IMHO the non productive part is: calling it a huge problem with a specific camera, or suggesting that the ePIC is inferior based on it's flare characteristics, which is an opinion.

David.

 

[James T Mather]

I heard about this thing a long while back on an Epic movie shoot that happened here in Ireland. Apparently it occasionally forced the (rather well known) director to rethink some shots as the vertical streaking had been noted.

The story was relayed to me as being seen specific to the Epic camera but was deemed to be a prototype side-effect at the time - I understand that Red were aware of it.

 

[David Battistella]

Mark showed great examples of gate flare in the thread on the R1 and on 35mm film

Lens flare = caused by the the angle light enters the lens.
Gate flare = how light can be reflected by the gate in 35mm film or the area around a CMOS sensor.

Lenses have flare characteristics and gates of different CMOS sensor cameras have gate flare characteristics.

The EPIC, RI, Alexa, etc. All have different gate flare characteristics.

There are strategies that do and do not involve a standard matte box to minimize gate flare. That is what the productive part of the other thread was.

IMHO the non productive part is: calling it a huge problem with a specific camera, or suggesting that the ePIC is inferior based on it's flare characteristics, which is an opinion.

David.

 

[Daniel Browning]

IMHO the non productive part is: calling it a huge problem with a specific camera, or suggesting that the ePIC is inferior based on it's flare characteristics, which is an opinion.

But isn't it also an opinion on whether the problem is "huge" or not? Or if it makes one camera inferior to another? Personally, I don't think gate flare is a big deal at all, but if someone else has the opinion that it's the end of the world as we know it and the sole determinant of the inferiority of cameras, I guess they're entitled to it. I never noticed gate flare in films until I saw it in my own video camera. Then it seemed like every film had it. That's why I don't think it's a big deal. In my case it's not actually gate flare, but reflection from the back of the locked up mirror, but the result is the same.

 

[Andy White]

I'm sure this is a real issue for some... and Im sure RED will address it, but I will sadly miss it.
I had it with my ARRI 435, liked it then, like i now...

But for the people that like perfect, clean images with hard light sources on the edges of frame.. Then I suggest you don't ever shoot anamorphics.

I think this thread is becoming a storm in a tea cup.

But that said, I think RED do need to share there intentions for those few that are annoyed with the flare.
If it is a upgrade, I wont be optioning for it. ... hey but thats only me. ))))

Well, it is a characteristic that shows up more often than people think... and is synonymous with film (IMO).

Problem is people are not used to getting it with their Red's... so anyone that has a Red and an Epic will see differing results, as per Adam's initial problem - as his shooting style and usage is highlighting the problem (it would be a real PITA if the flare exhibits itself half way through a zoom, for example).

Personally, I see it as a camera characteristic... and, if I manage to convince those around (and above me) that Epic is the way to go, I'd be with Mark and want one that displayed the gate/streak flare... but I can see others would not want it at all (but I also like anamorphics for the flares and crazyness

Maybe, to chime agreement with Mike, an optional upgrade could be the answer.

 

[Timur Civan]

This issue is exaggerated by certain lenses. Dont like the flare? shoot a different set of lenses.

My Cooke 18-100 T3, Flares like a roman candle, and especially so on Digital. Panchros, minimal flare even on digital. Newer coatings.