Philosophy change...

[Paulo Emílio]

It's time to create the redrumors.com ;-)

 

[James Brundige]

Up 'til now, we have said what we are "going to do".

As of now, that has changed (we promised that everything is subject to change... including our strategy).

We will only announce new things when they are done and ready to ship. That includes Scarlet and all other new products and accessories.

We used to go by "always late but worth the wait". That will no longer be the case because we won't telegraph what we are planning anymore. There will be no possibility of us being late. No more "we expect this to be done by..."

From now on it will only be "Here is is and we are ready to ship".

Jim

It's been an entertaining ride, the long salivating waits aside. I'll miss the experience of seeing inside the development process, but I understand the need to exclude your competitors from that. Won't have as much time for this forum anyway, when Epic gets here.....next week, right?

 

[Mark Toia]

Sorry for the long winded email..

Look.. I'll say what a majority of us are thinking. (I've had many off forum conversations regarding this thread today)

Jim, Ok, I muck around on this forum a little bit... , but hear me out please...
Also don't take offence, this response is sincere, respectful and polite.

I don't like this "Share nothing anymore" idea of yours Jim. Also this is the first time I've disagreed with anything you've done. Your straight shooting openness is what draws me to your company.

Your the king of hype, (take that as an awesome compliment.). But the RED hype 4-5 years ago actually turned into the real deal.
Hype that sells product long term. Hype that makes people stop, hold there money and wait for you... Hype that creates an builds a brand quicker than expected..., Hype other people subconsciously help sell for you.. Hype you don't have to pay for... it's free.

Trying to turn yourself into a mini APPLE and keeping everything close to your chest and not sharing anything with your long term customers is not good. Especially when you've been feeding us solid for the last 4 years your progress.

I really don't think this will work for you or us long term. We as a group are hi end camera consumers, we are not the same as Iphone, ipad purchasers. We buy those apple products because they are cool and cheap and disposable.... EPICS are not. 80% of your customers cannot afford an EPIC without planning for it....

We (I) want and need to know whats coming so we can plan for it. If I don't no its coming, I wont plan for it, wont get excited for it.... we wont talk about it with another 1000 possible consumers, we wont do anything because we don't know what's coming or going on... and probably won't buy then because we have bought something else... because we didnt know what was actually coming.

So for example a 8k SONY or a 5K Alexa comes out... Say we end up buying that. (don't respond to this bit) why?.. because we don't know if REDs next camera is coming or not... or what its capable of, what specs it has?? . We are in the dark as customers so we don't wait 12 months like we have in the past.

Hypothetical: Just say I did buy a 5k Alexa (only because we don't know about REDs next move) Say I have already spent all my money and cannot afford to dump all those newly acquired tools to go buy a new 8K EPIC... So your silence becomes non beneficial for long term planners such as myself and 100 other people I know... We don't know its coming, we don't budget or plan or get excited for it...

Everything you and your team have told us about early we have waited for and thats a FACT, first time in history I've seen this happen... People pay and wait for a year or more... Only RED could have pulled this off with the HYPE you have created.
Why because the RED information vehicle is strong and ever apparent. This is why alot of us love the RED brand and products. So powerful was this type of online marketing and forward thinking that we all held funds aside for your promised camera, left deposits and eventually purchased...
Even though you may have been late due to manufacturing and tech hold ups, the fact is we waited because we new it was coming. So your sharing worked. Stop the sharing of dilevery dates and up incoming products and the consumer will do the same... stop... It's just natural human behaviour.

Big ideas, great tools are worth the wait, (if you know its coming) You sharing nothing, then we don't get excited, we don't share the hype for you, nothing is built up, hype, hysteria, rumours, what ever you want to call it is very healthy for any company.

Sorry Jim. I humbly disagree with your thinking... but understand why.

But hey, It's your company and you at the end of the day knows whats best for you.

I'm only sharing my sincere thoughts.
Please don't respond defensively, This is not an attack of your better judgement. It's only a customer sharing his thoughts to his supplier..

Best regards

 

[Tim Morten]

Okay, enough yes-men - time for someone to speak up for what is being lost.

Without transparency, consumers will make decisions lacking an of understanding what's coming.

No more lead-time to save up enough money to afford the purchase.
No more ability to scoff at competitor launches with the confidence that Red is well along the way to launching something better.
No more opportunity to react to design decisions and help shape product development.
No more ability to engage with Jim on his vision as that vision evolves, only well after he's drawn conclusions.

I like Red as it is. If "maturing" means becoming like every other company, that makes me sad.

I say: Red, as frustrating as it is to have your customers whine about release dates, your transparency is part of what makes you so special.

Don't give in to the dark side.

- Tim

 

[Mark Toia]

Agree...

Okay, enough yes-men - time for someone to speak up for what is being lost.

Without transparency, consumers will make decisions lacking an of understanding what's coming.

No more lead-time to save up enough money to afford the purchase.
No more ability to scoff at competitor launches with the confidence that Red is well along the way to launching something better.
No more opportunity to react to design decisions and help shape product development.
No more ability to engage with Jim on his vision as that vision evolves, only well after he's drawn conclusions.

I like Red as it is. If "maturing" means becoming like every other company, that makes me sad.

I say: Red, as frustrating as it is to have your customers whine about release dates, your transparency is part of what makes you so special.

Don't give in to the dark side.

- Tim

 

[Brian Murphy]

Am I the only one who scans the Recon thread and only stops when I see the Jannard Red Logo? It seem to be only effective way to stay informed and still have time to shoot for a living.

 

[mikeburton]

I actually agree with Mark. He said it so much it doesn't need repeating
If you stray too far from what you were who do you become? Either way, it's your choice and of course we can understand it but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
BTW- ship the projector and RedRay

 

[George Butterfield]

But ....
Doesn't the EPIC give us time to pause and devote ourselves to Production and POST ...

We need developments on the POST side.

RED should focus on 5K POST .... a one stop filmmaking company ....

You don't need every iteration ... an upgrade every Five years is fine.

The Battle Tested R1 MX buyers will be big winners ... five years later they can get the latest EPIC.

 

[JD Holloway]

I, for one, will miss the old approach.

It really felt like I had a personal and emotional investment in the development of Red Products.
Occasionally we have a opinions to share too. Many of you feel the same way.
We all know RED values the opinion of REDusers and listens to us.

Strategically, the new modus operandi makes total sense. We all understand that.
Heck, Apple often doesn't file for patents till the DAY BEFORE shipping.
They must have great security/NDAs/goons...

I would advocate for an "insider forum".
Full NDAs and passwords etc. It would mean that we could be kept up to date with the dreamers at Lake Forest.
Because, dreams are why I got into the film business. I'm in the business of making them, realizing them and sharing them.
And I'd love to know what the dreamers in SoCal are dreaming up for tomorrow.

And chat about it late at night.

J.

 

[Elsie N]

Sorry for the long winded email..

Look.. I'll say what a majority of us are thinking. (I've had many off forum conversations regarding this thread today)

Jim, Ok, I muck around on this forum a little bit... , but hear me out please...
Also don't take offence, this response is sincere, respectful and polite.

I don't like this "Share nothing anymore" idea of yours Jim. Also this is the first time I've disagreed with anything you've done. Your straight shooting openness is what draws me to your company.

Your the king of hype, (take that as an awesome compliment.). But the RED hype 4-5 years ago actually turned into the real deal.
Hype that sells product long term. Hype that makes people stop, hold there money and wait for you... Hype that creates an builds a brand quicker than expected..., Hype other people subconsciously help sell for you.. Hype you don't have to pay for... it's free.

Trying to turn yourself into a mini APPLE and keeping everything close to your chest and not sharing anything with your long term customers is not good. Especially when you've been feeding us solid for the last 4 years your progress.

I really don't think this will work for you or us long term. We as a group are hi end camera consumers, we are not the same as Iphone, ipad purchasers. We buy those apple products because they are cool and cheap and disposable.... EPICS are not. 80% of your customers cannot afford an EPIC without planning for it....

We (I) want and need to know whats coming so we can plan for it. If I don't no its coming, I wont plan for it, wont get excited for it.... we wont talk about it with another 1000 possible consumers, we wont do anything because we don't know what's coming or going on... and probably won't buy then because we have bought something else... because we didnt know what was actually coming.

So for example a 8k SONY or a 5K Alexa comes out... Say we end up buying that. (don't respond to this bit) why?.. because we don't know if REDs next camera is coming or not... or what its capable of, what specs it has?? . We are in the dark as customers so we don't wait 12 months like we have in the past.

Hypothetical: Just say I did buy a 5k Alexa (only because we don't know about REDs next move) Say I have already spent all my money and cannot afford to dump all those newly acquired tools to go buy a new 8K EPIC... So your silence becomes non beneficial for long term planners such as myself and 100 other people I know... We don't know its coming, we don't budget or plan or get excited for it...

Everything you and your team have told us about early we have waited for and thats a FACT, first time in history I've seen this happen... People pay and wait for a year or more... Only RED could have pulled this off with the HYPE you have created.
Why because the RED information vehicle is strong and ever apparent. This is why alot of us love the RED brand and products. So powerful was this type of online marketing and forward thinking that we all held funds aside for your promised camera, left deposits and eventually purchased...
Even though you may have been late due to manufacturing and tech hold ups, the fact is we waited because we new it was coming. So your sharing worked. Stop the sharing of dilevery dates and up incoming products and the consumer will do the same... stop... It's just natural human behaviour.

Big ideas, great tools are worth the wait, (if you know its coming) You sharing nothing, then we don't get excited, we don't share the hype for you, nothing is built up, hype, hysteria, rumours, what ever you want to call it is very healthy for any company.

Sorry Jim. I humbly disagree with your thinking... but understand why.

But hey, It's your company and you at the end of the day knows whats best for you.

I'm only sharing my sincere thoughts.
Please don't respond defensively, This is not an attack of your better judgement. It's only a customer sharing his thoughts to his supplier..

Best regards

A+++

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

As of now, that has changed (we promised that everything is subject to change... including our strategy).

Hopefully, you will change this change at some point in the future, once all of these developmental projects are shipping and the noise and dust from having telegraphed them settles.

Besides owning an amazing camera, having a ringside seat to the future is what makes RED fun.

Arri, Sony, Canon, Panny et. al. are not fun.

You and Jarred and the rest of the RED gang are fun - don't take that away permanently. As a temporary thing, it is perfectly understandable, but as a sea change, it will be a real bummer.

But please change this change, once all those goodies ship.

 

[Perry Wilson]

I love the new philosophy, but the tooth paste is already out of the tube on Scarlet... all people want is some more test footage... something to wet our whistle on... before epic rolled out there was loads of test footage, making people want to buy it more... not the case for scarlet... and I imagine the plan is to roll it out soon... seeing as it follows epic x and those started today... just excited to see info and footage from IBC... maybe then well have something new

 

[Russ Campbell]

Sorry for the long winded email..

Look.. I'll say what a majority of us are thinking. (I've had many off forum conversations regarding this thread today)

Jim, Ok, I muck around on this forum a little bit... , but hear me out please...
Also don't take offence, this response is sincere, respectful and polite.

I don't like this "Share nothing anymore" idea of yours Jim. Also this is the first time I've disagreed with anything you've done. Your straight shooting openness is what draws me to your company.

Your the king of hype, (take that as an awesome compliment.). But the RED hype 4-5 years ago actually turned into the real deal.
Hype that sells product long term. Hype that makes people stop, hold there money and wait for you... Hype that creates an builds a brand quicker than expected..., Hype other people subconsciously help sell for you.. Hype you don't have to pay for... it's free.

Trying to turn yourself into a mini APPLE and keeping everything close to your chest and not sharing anything with your long term customers is not good. Especially when you've been feeding us solid for the last 4 years your progress.

I really don't think this will work for you or us long term. We as a group are hi end camera consumers, we are not the same as Iphone, ipad purchasers. We buy those apple products because they are cool and cheap and disposable.... EPICS are not. 80% of your customers cannot afford an EPIC without planning for it....

We (I) want and need to know whats coming so we can plan for it. If I don't no its coming, I wont plan for it, wont get excited for it.... we wont talk about it with another 1000 possible consumers, we wont do anything because we don't know what's coming or going on... and probably won't buy then because we have bought something else... because we didnt know what was actually coming.

So for example a 8k SONY or a 5K Alexa comes out... Say we end up buying that. (don't respond to this bit) why?.. because we don't know if REDs next camera is coming or not... or what its capable of, what specs it has?? . We are in the dark as customers so we don't wait 12 months like we have in the past.

Hypothetical: Just say I did buy a 5k Alexa (only because we don't know about REDs next move) Say I have already spent all my money and cannot afford to dump all those newly acquired tools to go buy a new 8K EPIC... So your silence becomes non beneficial for long term planners such as myself and 100 other people I know... We don't know its coming, we don't budget or plan or get excited for it...

Everything you and your team have told us about early we have waited for and thats a FACT, first time in history I've seen this happen... People pay and wait for a year or more... Only RED could have pulled this off with the HYPE you have created.
Why because the RED information vehicle is strong and ever apparent. This is why alot of us love the RED brand and products. So powerful was this type of online marketing and forward thinking that we all held funds aside for your promised camera, left deposits and eventually purchased...
Even though you may have been late due to manufacturing and tech hold ups, the fact is we waited because we new it was coming. So your sharing worked. Stop the sharing of dilevery dates and up incoming products and the consumer will do the same... stop... It's just natural human behaviour.

Big ideas, great tools are worth the wait, (if you know its coming) You sharing nothing, then we don't get excited, we don't share the hype for you, nothing is built up, hype, hysteria, rumours, what ever you want to call it is very healthy for any company.

Sorry Jim. I humbly disagree with your thinking...

But hey, It's your company and you at the end of the day knows whats best for you...

I'm only sharing my sincere thoughts.
Please don't respond defensively, This is not an attack of your better judgement. It's only a customer sharing his thoughts to his supplier..

Best regards

I tend to agree with Mark on this one. There must be a way of finding a balance whereby your present and future customers have some idea of the future without divulging too much to your competition. As Mark mentions, purchasing RED cameras, especially the top end cameras, has to be planned for financially. Had I known nothing about the Epic, I might have been tempted into buying an Alexa (heaven forbid), as more and more of my RED One rental business was going this camera (doesn't make much sense, but that's the nature of this industry). Knowing what the RED Epic-M/X cameras were going to deliver in the reasonably near future certainly kept me from even contemplating purchasing an Alexa and now that I have my Epic-M and waiting for the Epic-X, I'm really glad I'm not an Alexa owner.

I am glad that RED has already mentioned the Dragon upgrade path for Epic's in the future, even if I don't know the specifics and I will continue to remain a part of the RED family, even if another manufacturer bring out a 'better camera' next year (doubt it though). This is because I know that my Epic's will be going through an upgrade in the not too distant future and I will reclaim lost business.

I really hope some compromise can be found by Jim and the RED team to keep us excited about the future as RED camera owners.

 

[JD Holloway]

I don't like this "Share nothing anymore"idea of yours Jim. Your straight shooting openness is what draws me to your company.

I'm very much in agreement with you MT.

 

[Drew Ingram]

A company has to do what is right by them, can't fault anyone for that. RED is a company that created a movement and a following based on that movement. If the company decides that they are now established and ready to go head to head with the much larger companies through a more "cards to the chest" strategy - more power to them. But, I do believe that they will start to lose that "movement" or feeling that customers get when feeling a part of that movement.

Does this mean that loyal fanboys will be jumping ship by the dozens? Slim chance. But, a change in strategy can equal a change in perception from it's customers (for better or worse). All that being said, I don't think the new strategy will be quite as drastic as it sounds (or how some are interpreting it). And more importantly/obviously: Jim is a successful billionaire of multiple companies for a reason... I can guarantee that the majority of the thoughts we're expressing have been rattling away in his head for quite some time. He just may know what he is doing...

 

[Steven Caesare]

I find myself agreeing with the sentiments of Mark Toia and Tim Morten.

Over the last few years, I've logged on to reduser every day. As of yet I don't own a RED camera (but I do have a shirt!), but I'm planning on purchasing a Scarlet. Yet, I feel I am already a customer in that I "buy in" to the RED philosphy and communication style.

In those years I've seen the communication style of Jim & Co. cause them pain on 2 different fronts:

1) It's telegraphed their product plans to their competitors - I don't know first hand what it's impact has been, but one can already see moves from ARRI and Sony that make it clear they are paying attention.

2) The response from SOME forum members has been negative - Whenever a new announcement is made, be it good or bad, there are a percentage of "forum jockeys" that find something to complain about.

​

Over time, I've seen Jim be less and less inclined to want to share what he is obviously loves and is excited about primarily because of the reaction he gets. Two years ago he announced he was pulling back some, I commented on it then, and note what he said http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?30871-New-RED-policy...&p=434357&highlight=#post434357:

Originally Posted by Steven Caesare


I can't help but think that this has much to do with people here who just couldn't keep a lid on themselves.

Watching the camera development process happen as transparently as RED has been was an amazing
process. The involvment with the community was even more amazing.

Yet, despite the always-present disclaimer in Jim's signature, people became impatient and demanding.

It's too bad. I am not yet a customer... but definitiely a fan. And since day one I got the notion that the product was not
going to be any further out than if it were developed behind closed doors, but instead I got to observe and even participate along the way.

Now it would appear some of that process will no longer be transparent to us, and the impatient forum-jockeys share much of the blame.

-Steve

Steve... there is a lot of truth in your post. Transparency is a good thing only as long as the troops fully embrace it, including the hard part (schedule). Some want us to be unconventional in all ways that include them in the process and understand that the schedule is a moving target "depending". Others like the sound of the concept but seem to revert back to "but you said and I need it now". It is easy to see why no company will try this transparency thing. It is very difficult to pull off. Our goal now is a modified approach, somewhere in the middle. We'll see how that goes.

Jim

Now, two+ years later of people still complaining they aren't getting enough, not realizing the discounts are amazing, not realizing that reality (read: tsunamis) can throw you a curve, the apparent reader-illiteracy associated with Jim's "Subject to change" tagline, and general bad attitdue amongst a contingent of Redusers, and he feels the need to pull back again. It's hard to blame him.

But.... I humbly request a reconsideration, Jim. While there's probably nothing we can do about the competition watching ever more closely, and thus statements that are TOO far forward reaching, and TOO detailed long in advance, are not realistc, our having absolutely zero advance info is going to be a depressing change.

I wish I could suggest that those with a bad attitude hero n the forum would repent of their ways, but that's impossible... there will always be "those people". I know it's a lot to ask Jim, and we have no right to excpet it, but is there any possability of asking you to ignore the idjits and consider more of a middle ground?

Nothing that gives away the intellectual jewels to the competition, but how about non-specific "high-level" indicators a while out, and then progressively more detail as we get close enough for it not to be tipping your had too greatly, yet an opportunity for us to do at least some planning?

And then, when the bad eggs chime in, just give em a collective Good For You when they voice their complaint in a non-constructive manner. Or sic Jarred on 'em.

I hope this message is received in the respectful, constructive tone it was intended in. And thanks for the ride thus far either way.

-Future Scarlet Owner
-Steve Caesare

 

[Steve Dent]

As a private company, Red & Jannard as CEO have a responsibility to themselves and their employees, only. They have to do what is in their best interests, which is ultimately what's best for the customer, as well. Even though as fanboyz and future customers, of course we want all the juicy details, but at this point there are probably too many downsides. As someone said, they can't be telegraphing everything to their competition. Also, it's clear that a lot of future clients feel entitled to products once a roadmap has been announced, or call products vaporware when they don't appear on time. I can understand Red wanting to nip that in the bud.

Have you ever been on the official Canon forums and heard a comment "You said the 5D mark III would be out in April, and I planned a shoot for it!!! Where is it!!?" or "LOL, that 1D mark IVs is never going to come and I made such big plans for it..." I see that more & more here. Good on Red, I say.

 

[peter roehsler]

Good, I am with you!
With garage days over, RED is now a (if not THE) leader of an industry. Part of RED´s success was and is `thinking differently´- why give that away to the competition for free. Let them find their own way, draw their own conclusions, develop and bring out their own products. RED has `helped´ other camera makers enough by openly discussing product strategies; it´s a good time to become less altruistic. As long as I will be able to upgrade my gear, I will be safe with this company´s product line. As long as I have some of the best minds and engineers of the industry developing tools for me, I feel taken care of. And as long as no marketing department tries to sell me on a cam with a 2 year life-span, I feel treated professionally and respectfully.

just my 0.02 euros.

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Totally agree with Marc: RED is the first company since the last 34 years I'm in the film business that makes me emotionally concerned. I love the way you are, I get sometimes angry the way you are. It's not good for you Jim, to stop shouting out loud, that's the way you are, that's the way RED needs to share craziness and enthusiasm, that's the way you built your incredible products. RED has significantly changed my private and professional live and I like it. So rethink what to share and not to share but: share nothing anymore is like castrating your way to share your power and confidence.

 

[Marko Hocevar]

While I undestand the logic behind this decision I must say that contrary to some opinions I think the timing of this decision is not logical from a general perspective.

The timing: When Epic-x finally is being delivered - is a logical one. Actually Jim stated pretty much the same once they started building the M's. This is just re-stating ehat has been pracsise for a while.
G

For me, the most logical thing to do would be to finish the milestones set several years ago and change the philosophy when all the milestones are passed. (leave the change for the next gen)
Why?
Judging from the intro it seems that among other things, being called late, hurts! We'll the "bullet" for being late has already been taken for Scarlet. From a technological point of view (specs) Scarlet is no more a secret nor does it brings something more advanced then EPIC. Based on those two things, I don't see a business critical reason to shut off info on the Scarlet development.
From a human psychology point of view this is a NOT so NICE thing to do to all SCARLET dreamers which are following the development for several years and are now suddenly left in complete dark. Like it or not you have created an addiction in a lot of people and now the supply is being cutt off.

I also have a general advice to all of you at RED. I believe (may be wrong) that most of the critique coming in this forum at its essence has the same passion for using RED technology as you have the passion to create this technology for us. So most of the critique is a frustration related either due to the wait ,or related to price increases which for some people means they will never be able to own the object of their passion.
So, next time you feel your blood pressure is increasing reading some comments, you might as well redirect those feelings into sympathy. Sympathy will more precisely address the essence of the critique.
Anyway, I wish you all the best in the new path you have taken. If I'll be able to afford it when it becomes available, I'll buy the SCARLET - I decided so at least 2 years ago.