Any free LUTS for kodak negative and print stocks?

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Andrae, Ido for years is using my services, as well as Luis... if you want the cheapest solution just go to the generic LUTs that I provide and you have it all... otherwise the digital only consulting package will give you access to CineProfiler also... Check out the movies we have done with Ido... http://www.motionfx.gr/client-work.html

Mike is correct to go to your filmout facility for that, but most of the time there is a conflict of interests and these (Filmout DI facilities) guys don't serve others easily... especially if the free service includes the secret sauce...

There is where I fall in to the picture...

Also to work in the limited gamut of video and then use inverse to go back, like "do it in REC709 and we will fix it" attitude... is not quite productive as if you use the wide gamut of film calibrated environment and then just convert to video or DCP... you know better, that we Pro DI houses, we use film first and then everything else... As about compromises... I see more the opposite way... Rce709 and the film... the way video and DCP is encoded doesnt allow the same depth of colors like film does... you aslo know that...

On the other hand, yes, the digital is here to stay... film dies, lets try to forget how it looks is a new approach... an approach I don't agree with...

If everyone see the differences in this page they will understand why film as a primary grading target is better...

http://www.motionfx.gr/workflows-lut.html

 

[M Most]

... to work in the limited gamut of video and then use inverse to go back, like "do it in REC709 and we will fix it" attitude... is not quite productive as if you use the wide gamut of film calibrated environment and then just convert to video or DCP... you know better, that we Pro DI houses, we use film first and then everything else... As about compromises... I see more the opposite way... Rce709 and the film... the way video and DCP is encoded doesnt allow the same depth of colors like film does... you aslo know that...

What you just said is theory, the theory being that a wider gamut by definition produces a better image. But that theory fails to take into account the simple fact that the colorimetry of a digital camera and the colorimetry of film stock are very, very different things. The colors that result from digital capture are not the same as the colors that result from film capture, and mixing those colors via a grading process yields its best results when one isn't constraining and corrupting the original color pallette in the name of creating a facsimile of the other. I did a number of DI's in which we took digitally captured footage and forced it through a film targeted path, and I've done others in which we stayed in the digital realm, correcting in a P3 environment. And without exception, the results were clearly superior using the digital to digital path because the colors were purer and a lot easier to control. The theory that film's wider gamut has to produce a better image regardless of the originating source is simply not borne out in actual practice because the greyscale and colorimetry of film are completely unique to film as an originating medium. Trying to shoehorn non-film images into that pallette results in a lot of compromises when compared to treating those images as they were meant to be treated, in their own color space. That's one of the primary reasons why Red themselves do not advocate it, and it's the main reason why I don't. It's also the main reason many recent pictures like The Social Network did not go that route. Besides, all of this is quickly becoming a moot point. Digital projection is finally achieving the kind of penetration levels that were predicted 3 years ago (prior to the financial meltdown), particularly in the US. The onslaught of 3D, regardless of what thinks of it, is helping to rapidly obviate the notion of film as a primary deliverable target. It is quickly becoming the case that the digital cinema version of any feature release is likely to be the most widely viewed in cinemas, with all viewings beyond that also being in digital formats almost by definition. To me, the days of film being the primary target are already largely gone.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

As usual, great knowledge being spread for free, I just love reduser !

 

[Marc Wielage]

In the interest of accuracy, the above is probably a bad example because Company 3 doesn't do their own film recording and never have (they do their own film scanning, though). The vast majority of their film recording is done at EFilm, with some done at Technicolor depending on the studio involved.

Good point -- touche.

I think we're rapidly getting to a world where the film-out kinda doesn't matter. Ten years ago, I predicted this would happen by 2020; now, I think it's happening a lot sooner.

Trying to shoehorn the color pallette of a digital camera like Red's products into that of photochemical film is not only short changing what the digital camera can produce, it's causing something less pure to emerge.

What's always surprising to me are the "illegal" colors you can see in digital projection with a 3D LUT, but they don't make it to the print. Massive changes in saturation, very bright magentas, and strong greens are among the biggest offenders to me. I can think of a couple of features (none that I did) where the directors went nuts because they kept running into a "you can't get there from here" situation.

There are also color space situations on film that you can't quite do in digital, so it kinda depends. My own experience is that it's not a problem getting a digital camera to fit into film color space, but you do sometimes run into dynamic range issues. (Haven't done an Epic project to film yet, so maybe this will prove me wrong.)

 

[Luis Otero]

Andrae,

The results we have experienced having Evangelos as your consultant and co-pilot are second to none. Just go to his web site and see the outcome of their procedure. We have been able to go to a level of cinematic images that I only used to dream about. Now we are there in just few months.

He is a very knowledgeable filmmaker (filmmaker = any person that works at any level of a film production) and is not biased, and is not afraid to help you to persist until you get to the same level than other people that have been around for years.

So, do not dismiss that option since the results you will achieve will pay back in no time.

I will post tomorrow some still as examples of our results. (doing this via iPhone is a pain...).

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mike, what I can say from my own real filmout and DCP experience, that is NOT derived as a second tier knowledge, since I own the film recorders and I personally do all, LUTs, film emulsion calibrations, density measurements, projectors accreditation's etc... I can say for sure that if you grade for digital targets you will NOT be able to go to film with no big compromises... it might sound theories to you, but for me its not, its every day business...

What we discussing is similar to the differences between Vinyl Disk audio supporters and CD's... we all know the plus and minuses... As Ido said, there is not even one time that we did an unmarked projection with both workflow's and the film grade method didn't won the job...

I know that if I have a well calibrated display device along with a film grading environment then with the resulted DPX files, I can do whatever I like with a click... All that for the typical low end short for a student all the way up to, have Variety writing "Marked by disquietingly beautiful imagery" and win Sundance awards and be in the short list for Oscars...

What I can say is that, for me theory, is proven... (and REDfilmLog is a king...)

 

[M Most]

I can say for sure that if you grade for digital targets you will NOT be able to go to film with no big compromises...

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this and leave it at that.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Mike, It seems that if we where in an audiophiles store, I would buy a lamp (audio tube) driven amplifier and you would get the latest digital drive amplifier... Even though as an engineer I have build and played around with both types of amp's, I know why the lamp is better, even though my instruments show the digital... because my ears say different thinks...

Yehh, it seems subjective but it isn't... have you heard the word "rich in harmonics" or lamps sound smother? that's the difference between the two... something equivalent is happening with image... imperfections are always the essence of art...

Yep, we have to agree we disagree.

 

[Luis Otero]

Samples

Samples

Andrae,

As I promised yesterday, some low resolution samples:

 

[Luis Otero]

And these two: the first is removing the reference color for camera preview on set, and get a perfect Cineon file (RedColor2 and RedlogFilm: you got to love it! :w00t; a dream for a colorist: low saturation, maximum dynamic range. The second is just a conceptual, quick grading to show that you can take such image to wherever you want.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Mike, what I can say from my own real filmout and DCP experience, that is NOT derived as a second tier knowledge, since I own the film recorders and I personally do all, LUTs, film emulsion calibrations, density measurements, projectors accreditation's etc... I can say for sure that if you grade for digital targets you will NOT be able to go to film with no big compromises... it might sound theories to you, but for me its not, its every day business...

What we discussing is similar to the differences between Vinyl Disk audio supporters and CD's... we all know the plus and minuses... As Ido said, there is not even one time that we did an unmarked projection with both workflow's and the film grade method didn't won the job...

I know that if I have a well calibrated display device along with a film grading environment then with the resulted DPX files, I can do whatever I like with a click... All that for the typical low end short for a student all the way up to, have Variety writing "Marked by disquietingly beautiful imagery" and win Sundance awards and be in the short list for Oscars...

What I can say is that, for me theory, is proven... (and REDfilmLog is a king...)

Thank you Evangelos and Luis. Great to hear Your reports. Love the samples Luis.

 

[Luis Otero]

...Love the samples Luis.

Thanks, Andrae. This is a product of pure collaboration: Evangelos guiding us to get that qualification as the guru (yes, the GURU, and if anyone disagree with it is out of his mind), Josh Schnose (our great colorist), and myself as supervising colorist. Well, and also receive beautiful images captured by an awesome DP (Jose Cassellas) is just priceless.

Again, being within +/-3% of error is a sweet thing. By following very methodically the proper procedures to get the images to behave 100% as Cineon, then grading with the DCI LUT customized by Evangelos to fit perfectly our projector and room, then we just use conversion LUTs, also customized, for film-out, DCP, Rec.709, and sRGB with the assurance that all versions are perfect for their respective outlet, and completely legal.

One thing: Evangelos does not compromise on quality, and he is so kind in transferring all his knowledge acquired over MANY years running a true post-house Certified lab by Kodak. What else a poor-man filmaker can dream on...:emote_happyhappy:

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Just noticed that you are based in Florida Luis... does Evangelos live in our great state too? Both of your experience on this workflow is so valuable. Whenever I get beyond the experimentation stage will definitely remember Evangelos for services/consultation.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Its also Florida here in Greece.... Nice weather, sunny... lots of debts, but who cares... US is in the same loophole... as everyone... the weather though is perfect... i wish guys to was there with both of you... but skype can be my eyes and my ears... Thanks Luis and Andrae...

 

[Luis Otero]

Just noticed that you are based in Florida Luis... does Evangelos live in our great state too? Both of your experience on this workflow is so valuable. Whenever I get beyond the experimentation stage will definitely remember Evangelos for services/consultation.

Andrae,

No, his Post House is in Greece, so everything is done via Skype, and we schedule the sessions based on the fact that there are 7 hours difference. However, this has never been an issue for our communication or sessions.

I am in the Orlando area (Winter Park), but far from Mickey and his gang... If you would like to stop by our modest studio, just contact me to set-up a date and time so you can experience/experiment with the workflow. That will be great...!

Regards,