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Huston, I Think We May Have a Problem

Peter Moretti

Peter Moretti

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Looking at the Scarlet, I think there may be an issue w/ lens witness marks.

Right now it looks like it doesn't have any. And the only area where one could affix white tape and write some in is the very narrow sloped area behind the follow focus gear. Hardly convenient.

Are we looking at a significant omission here?
 
Okay Peter ... don't know the answer to your question, but must admit this is one of the more clever thread titles I've seen here on the boards.

Anthony
 
Pretty sure the camera has a long way to go before it's a finished product, so I wouldn't worry about it...
 
Not sure it makes a lot of sense to have focus markings on a gear that controls focus, zoom, and aperture. . .

It may have been clever if it was spelled correctly. . .
 
Jonathan,

Now that I think about this more, I believe that if one wants physical witness marks on the barrel there is reason to worry.

The Fixed Scarlet uses the lens ring for any of the following three functions: focus, zoom and iris. I don't see how permanent witness marks are even possible on the barrel of a lens whose ring can be rotated for any of three reasons. And if you want to affix temporary ones, I don't see good place to put them.


P.S.

Andre,

You beat me to my posting. And sorry for dropping the "o." :embarassed: My only excuse is that I grew up in NYC where "Houston" is pronounced "Howston."
 
Thank you Andrew for making the point I was going to make. The ring is programmable so that it can control any one of the parameters just mentioned, from what I understand the thumb wheel on the handle will be able to be programmed as well.

That said you will use this camera differently than other cameras. RED has made this a very flexible camera that will allow different modes of operation than what we are used to. So you will be able to focus via the lens ring, probably the thumb dial, and the touchscreen. Options are a good thing. Thank you RED.
 
Interesting point. Not having witness marks could be a real issue if you have an assistant pulling focus... But I can't imagine Red hasn't thought of a solution for that.

Long ago, Jarred showed a prototype or rendering of one of the future Red electronic lenses, which had a small Oled display instead of the physical markings on the lens. That would probably be the best solution for the Scarlet too. That way it could change dynamically with the settings you chose...
 
A related issue is it seems there will be no hard stops on the lens, i.e. it will rotate past near focus or infinity. Hard stops facilitate focus pulls that involve near focus or infinity.

You could use a follow focus, keep the ring engaged for focusing only and write out distances on the follow focus wheel as a workaround for witness marks.

But it's harder to figure out a workaround for hard stops, as most follow focuses don't have them as they expect the lens to.
 
It will be interesting to see what kinds of follow-focus solutions come up for this camera. My guess is that they would be remote-controlled and will connect to the camera electronically. This will make perfect sense, as the camera has full electronic control over its own lens. for the camera itself, I am under the impression that the concept is that you can focus in real-time by eye (using the monitor), or if you have specific marks to hit, you program them to the assignable buttons and simply click when it' time to go to the next mark. You can also program the duration of the transition.

It seems to me that this camera was not designed to be used with physical markings on a piece of tape. It's a camera to be put in small stereoscopic rigs, to be flown on steadycam rigs, to be used hand-held when its small form factor is an advantage. Situations where having a focus puller physically running around the camera would be impractical. If you want to pull focus by marks on a gaffer tape, this may not be the camera for you. Maybe the interchangeable lens version would be more appropriate. For me, the Scarlet - fixed is a perfect match.

After seeing it previewed at NAB I can report that I'm super impressed. The image is absolutely beautiful, the form factor is great, and the lens is a major triumph. I only hope it is given a more responsive zoom rocker, as the one I saw at NAB (as a part of the handle module) was a pair of (+)/(-) buttons that supported one (menu selectable) speed. With a more responsive zoom rocker, that supports several speeds and can glide smoothly between them, the controller-ring can be used almost exclusively for focus, while the zoom rocker does the zoom and the REDmote ring controls the iris. This can enable an easy simultaneous control of all three. Having said that, this issue (or let's call it "feature request") is all about the handle module. the camera itself is simply awesome!
 
Sorry I just quickly skimmed the thread so I apologize if this has already been brought up, but let’s not forget about the REDmote Pro which allows for remote focusing and looked to have good places for marks. And with this setup the camera-op could potentially be simultaneously adjusting one of the other two parameters of the lens ring while someone pulls focus on the REDmote Pro.
 
Leo Sardello said:
Sorry I just quickly skimmed the thread so I apologize if this has already been brought up, but let’s not forget about the REDmote Pro which allows for remote focusing and looked to have good places for marks. And with this setup the camera-op could potentially be simultaneously adjusting one of the other two parameters of the lens ring while someone pulls focus on the REDmote Pro.
Click to expand...

That was my thinking as well. done right that remote will be very useful.
 
Yeah I mean to me it looks like the REDmote Pro IS the solution, but that’s just me. And it will of course depend on how well it all works together. I mean will there be lag? How much if there is? It’s too early to tell yet but I think it would be sweet if it works right. Though I imagine not everyone will be happy with such a solution.
 
People have been using follow focus' with the HVX200, all the canon video cameras, and Canon L lenses with no complaints other than making sure you know the points you cant pass on the ring, or get a FF with hard stops.
 
And it works fine as long as one of your marks isn't at infinity or near focus. This is precisely the reason why Canon's XF's and Sony's EX's have hard stops.

Not to say there won't be a good solution or workaround. But when I noticed the lack of witness marks, I started this thread on the off chance that this is something needing to be addressed before Scarlet is released.
 
Peter Moretti said:
And it works fine as long as one of your marks isn't at infinity or near focus. This is precisely the reason why Canon's XF's and Sony's EX's have hard stops.

Not to say there won't be a good solution or workaround. But when I noticed the lack of witness marks, I started this thread on the off chance that this is something needing to be addressed before Scarlet is released.
Click to expand...
As others have stated, I suspect that it will all be done electronically. For example, the "follow focus" will be done on the Redmote with programmed distances and electronic "hard stops".
 
Which will be pretty much impossible to do if you have only one person operating. And that's a substantial part of Scarlet's intended market.

BTW, I'm truly not trying to bash Scarlet. What I am trying to do is bring to light issues that may surface once the camera is released. It's better to address such things before the whole thing is locked down. Then again, is a Red camera ever truly locked down, LOL!
 
Peter Moretti said:
Which will be pretty much impossible to do if you have only one person operating. And that's a substantial part of Scarlet's intended market.

BTW, I'm truly not trying to bash Scarlet. What I am trying to do is bring to light issues that may surface once the camera is released. It's better to address such things before the whole thing is locked down. Then again, is a Red camera ever truly locked down, LOL!
Click to expand...


Why not leave the ring on focus, and use the rocker on either the REDmote or Side Handle to zoom in? you can assign a button for quick whip zooms on the ring, and have it set to autofocus for that.
 
The issue is that w/o hard stops it's difficult if the ends of the focus move are at near focus or infinity b/c the ring rotates past the stop.

When you rotate past a stop at infinity, the ring keeps on rotating but the elements disengage since you don't want them trying to focus past infinity.

Now here comes the problem. Let's say you have another focus mark to go to. That lens ring's position for that mark has moved by the amount of the over rotation when trying to hit the previous stop's mark at infinity.

Yes, you can rotate past the stop on a between range focus pull as well, but the lens elements are always engaged, so an overshoot on one end of the move doesn't change the ring's in-focus position for the next mark.

People HAVE dealt with this for years with the HVX's, XH's and other prosumer video cameras, so please realize I'm not trying to make this sound like the end of the world. But the most recent crop of high end video cameras from Sony and Canon have hard focus stops on their lenses for the very reason mentioned above.

I really don't know how much of an issue this will turn out to be with the Scarlet.



P.S. Enough people complained about this w/ Canon's XH-A1 that they significantly redesigned the lens for the XF's:

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/camcorders/hd_video_cameras/xf300#Features

"In Full Manual Mode, the lens features mechanical stops for both the zoom and focus systems. Mechanical (Hard) end stops ensure that repeatable and dependable focus and zoom can be achieved when manually turning the lens barrel. These mechanical stops also allow for compatibility with many third-party remote camera controllers that require end stops in order to calibrate themselves. Additionally, display distance indicators on the lens barrel allow the operator to easily set the desired focus distance and move between focus points while recording."

Again, I'm not saying there won't be a way to deal with this on Scarlet. Bringing this potential issue to light was my sole intention. So unless I see some very compelling reason, I'm not going to be posting more in this thread, as I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to keep this issue alive.
 
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