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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

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JustinC said:
For years I've been reading Apple forums and as the user base has gone through the roof, so have the number of people who feel that the company should service their exact need. As their love grows for Apple they start to project emotions on this one way relationship; complaining if their personal dream product isn't made, or Apple release products that seem out of step with the consumer's wishes.

This reminds me of that great scene in Goodfellas where Henry 'breaks his cherry' by getting arrested. Congrats RED team, you've moved closer to world domination.
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Yes! Totally agree. Speaking of which ... Apple OWES ME HD MUSIC (24bit/96ghz) DOWNLOADS ... like yesterday!!!!!!! ;)

Anthony
 
all said and done, fixed lens scarlet, in bare shooting mode = cheapest 2/3 sensor camera on the planet. Maybe you won't appreciate fixed lens 2/3 for digital cinema, maybe you will if you do...


3d, ENG, event shooting, docu, sports, EFP, stock footage, the list goes on.

Panasonic built a whole foundation, and their whole bread and butter is their entire ENG line of cameras, all 2/3, and you have to spend 20+ thousand dollars on a body, maybe a kit lens and a p2 card if you're lucky. Eng shooters who have their own lenses already will mostly opt for interchangeable and throw on the lenses they already own, and everybody else who needs a quality event camera will opt for the fixed lens version cause it's easier, and you got autofocus.

and i think that's something people are forgetting, RED is implementing a stellar autofocus system in it, with touch screen focusing, and i believe they mentioned something about face detection too. this is HUGE. When you are the guy that only gets the paycheck if you get the shot of Celebrity so and so, and you missed the shot cause your focusing skills aren't up to par, or ur sensor is so massive you can do it in time, this is gonna save your ass.

the digital camera world has TONS more markets than the indie filmmaker. I'm pretty sure in broadcast as a whole, generates and employs a lot more people than even hollywood features.
 
josemnorton said:
I haven't been here in a while but I felt compelled to come here and write about how ridiculous the concept of the Scarlet feels to me.

Here's a little anecdote:
Luxury car salesman turns to customer and says:
- We have this amazing new Rolls, with a super advanced engine with tons of horsepower and the best thing is it only costs 50,000 dollars!
The customer looks amazed but asks:
- Really? What's the catch?
And the car salesman answers:
- Tiny catch... It runs on fixed wooden tires.

I mean, how do you except to position a camera for the indie filmmaker that includes a FIXED lens? At a time when people are shooting with DSLR's mostly because of the interchangeable lens feature and that future low-end cameras (in the same price range as the Scarlet) like the Sony NEX FS100, include interchangeable lens mounts, you come with a camera that will bring the market back to the DVX100 age. But in breathtaking 3K RED RAW!

You can't rely solely on the RED RAW extravaganza (which I love, by the way) and expect people to buy a camera because of that.

One happy end for the customer in the anecdote could be him actually purchasing the Rolls but modifying it so that he can have the freedom to put whichever tires he deems fit. If I were to buy a Scarlet, I would only buy it so that I could modify it by removing the fixed lens and putting in a PL mount. And if such thing is possible, then that's what many of us will do.

With the Scarlet, you're taking away the freedom that made me passionate about the RED brand to begin with.
And that freedom is something that every indie filmmaker can relate to.

However, I can't express how amazing the EPIC is and what a wonderful job you've done with it.

Lastly, thank you for allowing us to vent about our frustrations, our dreams and your products.
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Please move over to Scarletuser. The first one hundred people get chocolate coated Scarlets from the Easter Bunny.
 
Cool, first smart answer! Facts!

If you're right about the focal lengths, then that changes a lot. And I guess you are, since it's an 8x zoom indeed. That would make it an excellent documentary and news camera! Sort of like the Eyemo or Bolex cameras back in the day.

As for the interchangeable-lens Scarlet, Ted Schilowitz said the following at NAB 2011: "the interchangeable Scarlet we were working on has actually moved into the Epic category."

And the price for this Epic-S? He said "we'll tell you when we're ready to tell you."
(source: this little video here: http://vimeo.com/22329646?ab)

So I guess I'm more confused rather than offended. The one bad thing about RED sharing so much with us is that because of the continuous changes it makes it also generates some confusion. But originally I thought we were getting a lot more (I know, I know, I'm ambitious and demanding...) out of the Scarlet.

A wet dream would have been a 5,000 dollar camera with RED RAW and an interchangeable-lens mount.
Instead, we got the bastard son of the Epic-S.

I hope that you all can see the humor in my postings. Don't take it (or me) so seriously. It's a forum, we're supposed to vent.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
There are cost and size savings with fixed electronic zooms, so it's not a bad thing to have both types of Scarlets. If you don't want the fixed lens version, don't buy it. Sony made the fixed-lens EX1 and the interchangeable lens EX3... I was talking to a guy who worked for a film school's camera equipment room where they bought some EX3's and he said in retrospect they should have bought more of the EX1's instead because most students just use the kit zoom on the EX3 anyway and they could have bought more bodies if they had gone with the EX1.
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OK, so it's cheaper to make a fixed lens camera.

And apparently, there's a bunch of people dying to own such a fixed-lens camera. People that seem to be repeating RED's marketing message: "a fixed lens that costs more than the camera, bla, bla". And that's fine. What this means is that RED found a niche of customers to whom a camera that's stuck for its lifespan with a fixed lens is not a big deal. Probably documentary filmmakers and film schools. And I'm glad that they'll have access to something like the Scarlet for 5 or so grand.

And speaking of film schools, just because students use zoom lenses more, it doesn't mean they should be learning about cinematography on fixed zoom lenses.
If at the cafeteria the most popular food is burger with fries, does it mean that's what they should be eating?
My experience with zooms is that you almost forget which focal length you're at. You just adjust it to your desired framing. What are your thoughts on this?

In its essence, though, the Scarlet kinda betrays the original concept of what RED was all about to me: freedom. But that's just my opinion.
If I owned RED, I would not release a fixed lens camera. But maybe it's the camera that will generate the most revenue. It's all speculation at this point.

In the end, there's a reason why all the professional RED cameras (the ones that include the interchangeable-lens mount feature) have all been moved to the Epic category. Scarlet stands alone for now (For those of you who don't know, the interchangeable-lens mount Scarlet has been renamed. It's now called Epic-S). So what does that tell you? That the people behind RED realize that the Scarlet is below the pro category that Epic has become.

Like I said before, I praise the Epic! It's one of the best cameras I've ever seen out there. I look at it and think that RED has finally beat the barriers of the digital cinema world and we now have something that's even smaller than an Aaton Minima and closer to an Eyemo. And without rolling shutters or moireings of any kind! Now THAT's exciting!
 
josemnorton said:
My experience with zooms is that you almost forget which focal length you're at. You just adjust it to your desired framing. What are your thoughts on this?
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A fair point. Artistically, you may want to frame with zoom or you may want to frame by moving the camera; different looks, different ways of telling a story. Having a zoom on the front *may* make you lazy about the second option.

josemnorton said:
Scarlet stands alone for now (For those of you who don't know, the interchangeable-lens mount Scarlet has been renamed. It's now called Epic-S).
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No. There *were* TWO interchangeable lens Scarlets, one with a S35 sensor (same as EPIC) called Scarlet S35, and one with a 2/3" sensor (same as Scarlet 8x) called Scarlet Cine.

A few months ago, Jim announced that the Scarlet S35 would henceforth be known as EPIC-S. Logical, this means all the S35 cameras are EPIC brand. Scarlet now consists of the 8x, and the Cine; both 2/3". So now EPIC = S35, Scarlet = 2/3". Simple.

I'll admit things seem rather quiet/back-burnered on the Scarlet Cine at the moment...

Mike
 
Hey Jose,

have you ever been in a bar where a guy keeps pushing and prodding until someone pushes back. And then the guy cries victim and comes back with, "Whats your problem I was only joking.'

Well today, that guy is you.

Have a good easter break and enjoy what you have.

Joe
 
Electronic compensations

Electronic compensations

There are some advantages to electronic compensation for both focus tracking and T/ stop tracking over the zoom range.

Mechanically compensated zoom lenses do not track focus and T/ stop 100%.

There are also cost advantages since an electroniclly compensated zoom lens can vary from the "true zoom" type design because the little motors in the lens can adjust the lens elements based on feedback from the sensor.

Getting High MTF 3K resolution (0r 0.8*3k=~2.4 maybe) from a so called 2/3 sensor which is just a little taller than Super8mm, is not easy, in fact its almost impossable without electronic feedback and limiting the range of the f/ stops used.

There are people that also need to keep dust out of the camera, with the small sensor dust will look larger, if you need to swap prime lenses in a dust storm, it will be hard to use the footage, a sealed camera can have its advantages.
 
Joe D'Arcy said:
Hey Jose,

have you ever been in a bar where a guy keeps pushing and prodding until someone pushes back. And then the guy cries victim and comes back with, "Whats your problem I was only joking.'

Well today, that guy is you.

Have a good easter break and enjoy what you have.

Joe
Click to expand...

Let's go grab drinks soon!
 
I am probably the last person on this group that would be expected to take you on Jose. But I will. Not everyone in the world is making the next great feature film or selling cars or chicken or feminine hygene products and soap. Some of us just shoot the "other stuff" for a living. We do docs, corporate blah blah, once in a while get lucky and bag a travel show and get someplace new and some a wedding, bar mitsvah or maybe a bris. Many and I repeat many of the directors and doc producers I work with have a "zoom lens background." They expect you to change framing between questions in a New York Second! Not repo the camera and shift the key and oh yeh while you are at it lets go with the 20 mm. I quite like shooting with a fixed zoom lens when I do this stuff. Sure I have my 35mm adapter right now and a pelican case full of lenses and they get used but, I have to pick my moment and pitch the shots before hand. When I have a morning to bang off three interviews, enough B roll to cover and some candy for the editor I need a zoom on the camera. Many of us travel or work solo. Yes this is not as "sexy" as working with an operator, assists, and someone to go to Starbucks for your skinny decafe,soy laté. We of the Tim Horton's double double crowd are in a different world and we need different tools. A fixed lens Scarlet would be nice but I am not holding my breath, despite the World Premiere. In any case I applaud Jim and the team for keeping a fixed lens option alive in their ever changing plans. Perhaps you may consider accepting and associating with those of us who need such an option slumming, but hey man you might want to look at some of the sh1t that comes out of the hood. So to speak in the vernacular. It is not Digital Cinema, most of the time but it is still a very large sector of the industry.
 
A fixed scarlet is like the entry level to the RED line, it helps many get their hands on a RED camera at a great price...
So they get the mini royals royce basically...

You then get the scarlet interchangable which is naturally subject to change, RED are simply focusing at what is going to really be taken up fast and would be more effective to get out the door first. EPIC-X, EPIC-S then Fixed Scarlet (at least that's what I least read). The Fixed obviously on hold as is the rest of the line due to the crisis.

Now the EPIC-X is your Royals Royce tricked out and upgradable (dragon), EPIC-S is your Royals Royce with stock and then you have your Fixed which is like the lowest end Royals Royce (if there ever was one)

The interchangeable goes somewhere between the S and the Fixed, it makes sense to get the Fixed out and S out because the S is interchangeable to begin with and will gain some extra goodies to give it the EPIC handle. The whole point is that the interchangeable means also that they would need to go ahead and get the Mini Primes ready, its a lot of work...so they would be spread too thin. It's a simple choice they had to make to go Fixed first in the scarlet line because the lens is standard (obviously) across all, easier then to produce in mass and have a kit made for it.

How many people would purchase a fully loaded, ready to shoot out of the box, Scarlet Fixed lens for 5,000? (not saying THAT IS the price...it's probably not even close)
How many people would buy an Interchangeable where you may or may not need to buy the rest of the kit for it? Also which may or may not go over the fixed lens kit price...

Makes sense to pay less, earn some money and training with a RED cam and then buy the EPIC-S or S35 (maybe even FF35 if you wanted)...
By the time your ready to purchase or have purchased that S or S35 EPIC your pretty solid on workflow and your cam can retire to be a B cam...
 
Like has been said before, if you dont want the fixed lens model, dont buy it.

There will be an interchangeable model with the same guts. The only reason this would be an issue is

A)if the lens RED produce was crap, and from when I used the camera it looked pretty good as far as I could tell.

B) if you wanted extreme lens sizes (I think if i remember correctly the 8X is like a 28-230 or something right?)

C) If you wanted faster lenses, Ie; Primes. 2.8 is fine for a zoom

D)If the price was ASTRONOMICALLY different.

Have to say that I cant wait for the fixed. Having used it I think that the electronic lens control is fantastic, and I cant wait to stick some of them on car rigs and cranes.

If you have a bunch of lenses lying around then great. I think you would be hard pushed to find one that covers all the bases that the 8X does in such a small size.

Whatever happened to EPIC-L?

Anyway, keep watching the announcements. Im sure there'll be a camera in there for you somewhere!

Cheers
 
Since you can't buy a good quality 8x zoom with full robotic controls, zoom focus and iris, with auto functions for the cost of a Scarlet fixed brain, it seems like an excellent choice to me. You could buy both a fixed brain for its zoom lens and the Cinema brain for interchangeable primes for less than you could buy the interchangeable and a comparable aftermarket zoom.

It will still serve as B-cam and crash cam to the more expensive models too. With full wireless robotic controls it will be a superb small crane camera.
 
Offended by a company working on building a camera that you don't care to purchase? Hmmm. Interesting...

Maybe you and I have a different understanding of what the word "Offended" means?
 
I sold my DVX-100A when I took delivery of my Red One 3 years ago. You have no idea how many amazing films I shot with that camcorder. I had a fixed lens like ALL camcorders back then and still today. I shoot with zooms most the times because of the flexibility. I don't see how shooting with a camera with a fixed lens can be offending? Red now offers a very wide range of options and budgets. Scarlet fixed is a great product in my opinion. It will offer people the chance to own an amazing high quality camera without the trouble to bother with lenses.

I think I understand what you meant but maybe you got carried away with badly managed passion...
 
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