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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED's 8K Dragon...

Gareth Gerrard

Gareth Gerrard

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Who wants to put bets in early that RED's Dragon sensor upgrade is going to be 8K... :-)

Seems a logical jump forward in Rez and the slow (non)competition.

(Note: Not really a betting man as I'm broke ass, just throwing it out there :)
 
Seems doubtful. I think it'll just be an even lower noise floor and better overall performance over the MX sensor.
 
We can only guess as to the specs. The only numbers that were ever quoted were originally posted 3 years ago. A lot can change in that time.

Given that the Dragon is going to be offered as an upgrade to the current Epic system, I would imagine that recordable areas and resolutions will be quite similar. To drastically increase the sensor resolution would require more internal processing power to maintain the current crop of frame rates and recording options. Of course, that is possible and there could be various trade-offs to a sensor upgrade within the existing brains. And I'm sure there will be new brains as well to offer additional sensor sizes and resolutions, new abilities and frame rates. It's going to be an ongoing process of evolution. I am thankful that RED is offering solutions to upgrade existing products rather than simply letting them fade into obsolescence.
 
more DR than alexa +1,2 stops ?!
and a more "uptodate" sensor - the epicsensor is ?? 3 years old *g*

Dragon is only for epic right? 1 more reason to go epic over scarlet
 
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Jeff Kilgroe said:
We can only guess as to the specs. The only numbers that were ever quoted were originally posted 3 years ago. A lot can change in that time.

Given that the Dragon is going to be offered as an upgrade to the current Epic system, I would imagine that recordable areas and resolutions will be quite similar. To drastically increase the sensor resolution would require more internal processing power to maintain the current crop of frame rates and recording options. Of course, that is possible and there could be various trade-offs to a sensor upgrade within the existing brains. And I'm sure there will be new brains as well to offer additional sensor sizes and resolutions, new abilities and frame rates. It's going to be an ongoing process of evolution. I am thankful that RED is offering solutions to upgrade existing products rather than simply letting them fade into obsolescence.
Click to expand...

Agreed Jeff. And what's amazing is that between the S35 format not going away anytime soon -- and 4k still at least a few years from becoming more widely accepted as "standard" -- I think the current Epic has a many years before it would become obsolete. Duh, I know you know that, I guess I'm just appreciating out loud in terms of how ahead of it's time this camera is. How many other cameras could you say would literally cover you for almost any need (except perhaps a rare FF or MF situation) for the next 5+ years? It's amazing :)

Anthony
 
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I think 6k FF35 would be very desirable. 6k nicely scales down to 4k and is more than most mass produced DSLRs can deliver for stills.
 
in the original epic annuncements there were monstro versions of scarlet, unless I wasn't paying attention again
 
Hope to have at least 6K inside the S35 window...

Hope to have at least 6K inside the S35 window...

I love some of the image dynamics possible with the FF35 format. That said, I think that S35 (APS-C) is a far more functional real world format for motion imaging. How often do you actually need less DOF than T2 on S35 allows at common focal lengths?
Give me great S/N ratio, high fill factor on the silicon, good tolerance for less telecentric incident light angles, consistent dye characteristics on the CFA and I'm a happy camper.
FWIW I think there is still a lot to be gained in more sophisticated processing of the data set as the rate of improvement over the last 3.5 years has shown. Moreover, I believe we are on the cusp of dramatic advances in the use of the HDRx data streams to yield stunning images - think nitrous pack on a dragster.

Cheers - #19
 
The only Monstro version of Scarlet ever announced was the FF35 Scarlet brain. Given how Scarlet has changed and the Scarlet S35 is now Epic-S, who knows what RED will do. Personally I'm glad for the shift to Epic-S for the naming of that brain. It was getting to be confusing trying to talk about Scarlet when some people would think of the S35 model and others would think of 2/3". I think it would make a lot of sense for RED to keep certain naming for certain imager formats. For example, Scarlet will be 2/3". Epic will be S35. Then they can call FF35 something else and 645 another name. Then from there, offer various models within the group such as Scarlet fixed and Scarlet Cinema or Epic-M, X, S...

Blair S. Paulsen said:
I love some of the image dynamics possible with the FF35 format. That said, I think that S35 (APS-C) is a far more functional real world format for motion imaging. How often do you actually need less DOF than T2 on S35 allows at common focal lengths?
Give me great S/N ratio, high fill factor on the silicon, good tolerance for less telecentric incident light angles, consistent dye characteristics on the CFA and I'm a happy camper.
FWIW I think there is still a lot to be gained in more sophisticated processing of the data set as the rate of improvement over the last 3.5 years has shown. Moreover, I believe we are on the cusp of dramatic advances in the use of the HDRx data streams to yield stunning images - think nitrous pack on a dragster.
Click to expand...

Agree on all of this. I like FF35 as a stills format though. And I do think it has applications for motion. For me, the format I'm more excited about for motion is the 645 medium format equivalent. This will offer a lot of image properties not available with FF35 and smaller. It's larger than 65mm and is only about 11% smaller than typical 70/15 IMAX production. It could very well serve as an IMAX source format. If it has a 9K imager or close to that which was originally announced, it should have similar (to even better) resolving power than 70mm film stock. The optics used at this frame size will play a huge role too. I'm super excited for this format, but then again, the thought of buying glass to support it makes me a bit apprehensive. I'm sure my set of Mamiya 645 lenses are not up to the challenge. Image quality is good overall, but I don't think they score real high in resolution. Their worm-gear driven AF system isn't going to help for electronic mounting and manually they suck for stills shooting and would be a nightmare for motion use. Focus throws on some of these lenses are less than 1/4 turn of the barrel and they are rough and like to stick and skip. Hassy lenses are much better in terms of mechanics, but still nothing to rave about when considering motion use.
 
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I think it will be a 5k sensor,just like the red one mx was 4.5k even after the upgrade,the difference may will be that it will have a far better noise floor,3 or 4 stops of more dynamic range natively,far more latitude and sensitivity and most importantly far greater colour reproduction and colour depth. Thats what i think the red epic dragon with the monstro sensor will be.....
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
The only Monstro version of Scarlet ever announced was the FF35 Scarlet brain. Given how Scarlet has changed and the Scarlet S35 is now Epic-S, who knows what RED will do. Personally I'm glad for the shift to Epic-S for the naming of that brain. It was getting to be confusing trying to talk about Scarlet when some people would think of the S35 model and others would think of 2/3". I think it would make a lot of sense for RED to keep certain naming for certain imager formats. For example, Scarlet will be 2/3". Epic will be S35. Then they can call FF35 something else and 645 another name. Then from there, offer various models within the group such as Scarlet fixed and Scarlet Cinema or Epic-M, X, S...



Agree on all of this. I like FF35 as a stills format though. And I do think it has applications for motion. For me, the format I'm more excited about for motion is the 645 medium format equivalent. This will offer a lot of image properties not available with FF35 and smaller. It's larger than 65mm and is only about 11% smaller than typical 70/15 IMAX production. It could very well serve as an IMAX source format. If it has a 9K imager or close to that which was originally announced, it should have similar (to even better) resolving power than 70mm film stock. The optics used at this frame size will play a huge role too. I'm super excited for this format, but then again, the thought of buying glass to support it makes me a bit apprehensive. I'm sure my set of Mamiya 645 lenses are not up to the challenge. Image quality is good overall, but I don't think they score real high in resolution. Their worm-gear driven AF system isn't going to help for electronic mounting and manually they suck for stills shooting and would be a nightmare for motion use. Focus throws on some of these lenses are less than 1/4 turn of the barrel and they are rough and like to stick and skip. Hassy lenses are much better in terms of mechanics, but still nothing to rave about when considering motion use.
Click to expand...

Jeff, this is the one main thing that kinda disappointed me about the Leica S series of lenses -- that they didn't give them full MF coverage. They are designed to just barely cover the 45 x 30 sensor, which has 54mm diagonal. Sometimes a "645" sensor camera can be as small as 44 x 33 (like the Pentax 645D) which has a diagonal of 55 ...

... However, I think the Red 645 sensor was announced at 56 x 42, which is on the large side for MF sensors. So there is no chance of getting full coverage on the Red 645 with the Leicas, which is kind of a disappointment considering their performance is absolutely stellar.

Another option is maybe the Phase One lenses, which might cover it since their 80mp sensor is 54 x 40. It won't be as good as the Leicas, and it's not designed for motion, but it seems that lens options for this format are pretty limited -- especially motion.

Then there are the Arri/Zeiss Maxi-Primes designed for the Phantom, which I asked about before, but everyone said they were nothing special and just based on the old Hassleblad MF formulas. They don't even appear for sale anywhere, though perhaps can be special ordered through Arri/Zeiss at MP prices :P

http://www.abelcine.com/store/ARRI-Zeiss-Maxi-PL-Primes-for-Phantom-65-Gold/

I wonder if Panavision ever made lenses for 65mm or 70mm format ...

EDIT: They do have a 65mm set - http://www.panavision.com/content/65mm-prime?l=1&c=0&p=31 - though I can't find the coverage info. Not really ownable, but still I guess this is a little comforting for those who want to shoot 65mm-like features and can rent these.

Anyway, I'm totally hijacking the thread here, so I will shut up now :)

Anthony
 
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I admire your energy to discuss the next specs before Epic X and Scarlet are released... :)

Looks like some of you are in it for the SPECulations ;)
 
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