Alexa, Red MX & Sony F3 Camera Test Comparison

[Jannard]

Joofa... if you need help is figuring out how to work with RED footage, please just let me know. I'd be happy to help you.

Jim

 

[Robert Frank]

If you knew what I meant in color you would have known it.

Sincerely,

Joofa

Joofa, WTH are you talking about? :arf:

 

[Brigham Edgar]

i think Joofa needs help if this is his belief from his personal experiences with RED.

With RED you need to know what your doing as there isn't a computer sitting inside with a nice set of preset color spaces, LUT's etc etc for you to just dial in and look good. Or just leave to standard and shoot crispy saturated video with stock skin tones. I know dozens of people that only tweak a little and go with it...it's the video way. RED aint video and you need to know what your doing but you have the fun of doing it yourself later. Most foul ups and bad results are simply just user error...either just bad shooting but mainly bad post work.

I think the best part of what is the future argument is that with the new DSMC system and constant free color science etc upgrades is your point Jim that since the R1 made its debut, one of the industries leaders (ARRI) have launched three models of cameras for over $500000 to keep up to speed with technology changes. The R1...$6000 for the MX chip and firmware updates! I have no doubt that ARRI, Sony etc will always be releasing new cameras to better the ones before, maybe even more frequently than RED's sensors changing (when are we looking at Monstro by the way, you mentioned 12 months between sensors and we are past that with MX). But will certainly be more happy only upgrading certain components of a camera system when i think it's worth it rather than an entirely new $80000-$250000 camera every 6-12 months.

Just another thought...think of all the old movies getting re-released in bluray! I tell you now, in 10 years time do you really think you will be wanting to buy a re-released bluray? I think not...it'll be like buying a DVD now from your VHS copy!

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

A smaller Alexa goes handheld!!!

A smaller Alexa goes handheld!!!

As a long term RED User member and participant (more than 7.700 posts...) I was always pro-RED and also warning RED in time...

That means now that RED shouldn't be so arrogant these coming days!!!

Why?

First, at NAB Sony will announce 6K digital cine camera that means EPIC will be no more resolution leader in a near future...

Second a smaller Alexa goes handheld!!!

It's about a rumor that ARRI will show small hand-held digital cine camera at NAB (a rumor about ARRI project code named Alexander the Great...) probably as a mock up.

Also it's about 73 years ago exactly that Arri showed to the world the first Arri 35:

March 28 1938

Arnold & Richter, Munich-based film camera manufacturer, delivers the first Arriflex hand-holdable 35mm camera (serial number 500).

The camera features quick-release daylight-loading magazines, a rotating lens turret and a battery unit below the camera body, serving as a handle.

The first Arri 35.

LINK>>>

Third is that RED shouldn't make a sort of "skipping" 1080p that supposed to be will have the biggest market share between all digital cine camera

systems in a Near and Far Future (iPad sort of tablets in the future will rule production of movie media content more than any cinema theater distribution even the latest boom of 3D movies...).

 

[George Chiper]

Let's repeat this this test 10000 times until our camera is the best.
Somebody who wants to do cinema and not just film resolution and color charts, will understand that the difference between Alexa and Red MX is not just adding Promist filter, and that this small things matter. Alexa is the winner now, lets see if Epic can make a difference.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I love the lattitude test they do.

One with coulds (because Germany has a lot of them) and the others with sun (because California and Japan as a lot of it)... ;-)

Pat

 

[RivaiC]

Hoo...Joofa, what do you find in Alexa color that you are so into believing, something that you know in terms of color that RED isnt good with ? Let's discuss it as healthy debate.

We have done couple of projects on Alexa and RED shot side by side, and i can tell you RED clearly is the winner.

Im curious

 

[John "Woody" Glaser]

Mr Jannard
"1080P was a mistake... any way you cut it, slice it or package it. History will show 1080P as the biggest mistake the industry ever knew."

Worse than Sony opting to market VHS as opposed to Beta?

 

[David Rasberry]

I think no body would deny that 4K has more resolution than 1080p so it is good that Red started an effort for that and deserves heartiest congratulations for that. But, I don't think that future digital cinema will be defined in a narrowly focused 1080p vs. 4K debate. There will be other important innovations. And, I can tell you one right away, some newer methods in color acquisitions - an area Red is quite pedestrian in, as far as I see. (No, fancily-named color spaces don't count :dita. I can point a few other areas as my personal projection, but I think color suffices.

So as far as I see Red has won the battle momentarily, but for future, as I said before, we shall see how it pans out.

Some of the Epic clips and still frames posted from Mark Pederson, Steve Gibby, and Ketch Rossi that have been graded show color qualities I have never seen from another digital camera. Gibby's canyon shot looks for all the world like Kodachrome to me.
The test under discussion was a "video" test, and as usual Red doesn't stand out because it is not a video camera in the normal sense of the word, i.e not intended to spit a finished delivery ready image out the back of the camera.

 

[Max Fischer]

Obviously this thread has moved from the test footage (which I agree isn't that useful) to a more interesting debate. I'm not a "fanboy" of any camera, and fanboyism drives me nuts.

But as a DP/small rental house owner, and someone who has a deposit on both an Epic and an Alexa, I am very torn. I'm definitely going to buy the Epic. But should I drop $80K on the Alexa? Tough question, and it all depends on what my small client base demands.

So last week on a shoot, an agency creative director from my biggest client says to the producer "We should be shooting on the Alexa." Ugggh. I love how camera choice is now dictated by what an agency creative read in some magazine. Does it really matter if we shoot a box of cereal on an RED One, Epic, or Alexa?

All the cameras make great images. As a DP in the commercial world, I get ZERO say in the look that happens in post, so it doesn't matter to me what camera I shoot on (post can make them all look as identical or different as you want).

As a rental house owner, ROI, reliability, and product/technical support are important to me. The RED One return on investment has been VERY good to me, and I know the Epic would do the same. Can the Alexa? Hmmm....

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I think the real issue here is that some of these cameras, as noted by others, were specifically designed for a simple workflow. They are capable of delivering terrific 1080p images with absolutely minimal effort.

RED was designed to produce vastly higher resolution images and is capable of achieving extremely high-quality images, but achieving this isn't exactly "easy" (certainly not as easy as running a tap off the back of the camera).

People who bought the RED One and who did not make the efforts to properly process their footage were probably disappointed. Those of us who do take that time (or, like in my case, pay people to do that work for them), are thrilled.

It's that classic golden triangle of "good," "fast," and "cheap." We got "good" and "cheap." But it isn't as fast as a true video camera. Others have opted for "fast" and "good," but it sure as heck isn't cheap (way over our heads, at least).

We couldn't be happier with the way our films look.

Stephen

 

[Christian Munoz D]

And, I can tell you one right away, some newer methods in color acquisitions - an area Red is quite pedestrian in, as far as I see. (No, fancily-named color spaces don't count :dita. I can point a few other areas as my personal projection, but I think color suffices.
.

Here we can see a clear example of people who don't know what are talking about!

 

[Christian Munoz D]

I think the real issue here is that some of these cameras, as noted by others, were specifically designed for a simple workflow. They are capable of delivering terrific 1080p images with absolutely minimal effort.

RED was designed to produce vastly higher resolution images and is capable of achieving extremely high-quality images, but achieving this isn't exactly "easy" (certainly not as easy as running a tap off the back of the camera).

People who bought the RED One and who did not make the efforts to properly process their footage were probably disappointed. Those of us who do take that time (or, like in my case, pay people to do that work for them), are thrilled.

It's that classic golden triangle of "good," "fast," and "cheap." We got "good" and "cheap." But it isn't as fast as a true video camera. Others have opted for "fast" and "good," but it sure as heck isn't cheap (way over our heads, at least).

We couldn't be happier with the way our films look.

Stephen

Exactly! And if your background in films you know what Red Raw and the Red workflow means. If your background is video, well.....learn to do it right or you will be in troubles.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

But should I drop $80K on the Alexa?

Two more Epics...

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

But should I drop $80K on the Alexa?

Two more Epics...

i wouldnt buy alexa, the people who are screaming for alexa, will be the same who will scream for epic when it hits the street.

and instead of buying one 1080p cam, i would buy another epic and some ultraprimes.

much more fun and a better investment in the long run with the ultraprimes.

2 cents from here.

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

After all these years, I still can't believe how tests like that can get people debating and arguing, no matter how good (or bad) those tests are. IMHO, the only good test is the one you run yourself. Period.

As for Red VS Alexa, well, let me just say every time I read this kind of thread I'm very, very glad I don't (and I won't ever) own the equipment I use, though I understand the situation is very different for rental houses.

Some people/productions pick Red. Others pick Alexa. Others pick Sony/Panasonic. Others are still shooting film (shocking, isn't it?). It's not Red VS. Alexa VS. Sony. In the real world, it's Red AND/OR Alexa AND/OR Sony, etc..

Why must it be this camera against all others? There's no perfect camera, no perfect tool, and having different options is something that should be supported, not "bashed".

 

[Scott Crawley]

The Red's rez stands out like dog's balls....

Well that's a new one on me. I don't quite get it, but it's awfully funny. I think I'll use it.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Although Alexa was launched in 2010 still didn't make any significant feature till today (commercially or artistically speaking), but who knows maybe something it's coming up soon ...???

But last year (2010) movies shot on RED won four Oscars and Jackass 3D was high rated (21) on the commercial Box Office US/Canada top 25 film list (see below):

LINK>>>

LINK>>>

 

[AnthonyFlores]

One of the things that I think is interesting is how intent people are to compare the Alexa with the Red One. Yes, I understand that's what is widely available right now from Red ... but we must remember the Red One is nearly 4 years old. (Yes, the MX chip is newer but that's an upgrade, not an entirely new camera). The Alexa has only been out for about a year or so, and still only available in small numbers.

So what's my point? Well, I have two: 1) the fact that the Red One or Red One MX wins in many areas and typically only loses slightly in DR and (perhaps) color says a lot about the camera. I mean ... we're talking about a camera that's 3 years older and less than a 1/3 of the price!

My second point 2) is that a comparison with the Epic is much more fitting. By NAB, Epic will have been released in almost the same numbers as the Alexa, and just like the Alexa, the Epic is Red's more "current" technology.

Granted, not many Epics have been in the wild for such tests until very recently -- but from now on, I think it's a bit silly to be comparing the R1 to the Alexa.

And what happens when the tests come out showing that the Epic beats the Alexa in every area -- at HALF the price?

I think this is why Arri has to resort to such gimmicks and reps telling people lies like "only Jim's close friends get Epics" ... because the real facts are getting pretty darn scary.

That's my .10 about all this

Anthony

 

[RivaiC]

Comparing RAW technology between RED and Arri....arri seems like pedestrian to me