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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Mike Seymour

Very impressive guys. Thanks for sharing. :)

Like Tom mentioned, I'd be curious to know if you used the +3 version or the +5 version.

Here is my guess at the post process:
1. Grade and process 1st version (base exposure) for the tunnel.
2. Grade and process 2nd version (Base exposure + HDRx) for outside.
3. Do a quick 3 frame dissolve between the two tracks.

Close, or way off base here?

What would be AWESOME, is if the post software would allow one to animate internally the HDRx slider, so that it could all be done in RAW in the one clip and adjusted as needed.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
I can still see a slight sort of flicker with neon lights in the driving cabrio at the tunnel shot...
Click to expand...

Sanjin, you are forgetting that neon lights in the tunnel are 90% from the A track that has already a long exposure. If you see flicker in it than it mean that you can’t do it any better in any other way of filming. You can extend shutter speed even farther to correct it but then the motion blur will be probably unbearable.

Though, actually human eye work the same, having more motion blur in the dark.

The impression of shutter speed adjustment while exiting the tunnel is just obvious effect of higher content of X truck after the exit from the tunnel, which bring us to the Tom remark:

Tom Gleeson said:
HDRx™™™™™™™™ is not to be used indiscriminately as it adds a new level of complexity not only in the doubling of storage, camera drive swaps and transfer times this second track has to be managed in post. Once the offline edit is done what does the editor have to do with his EDl to refer to the Xtrack or is it done at the colour grade session or is their a whole new process that needs to be added?
Click to expand...

This is the whole idea behind the HDRx™™™™™™™, we rather deal with changing light condition in post, by processing sudden light changes, frame by frame, instead of trying to take this shot live, redoing it again and again to get it right in the real world, wasting time of talents, support people and the whole team.
 
Jim and Guys,

One thing that seems to be coming clear is that -- because Epic does things that no other cameras have done before it -- I think it's important to develop more extensive training so that people are getting the most from their cameras. This is good for Red in so many ways, I don't even need to explain it ....

And while I haven't attended Reducation (I hope to this year in May or June) -- I'm guessing that you guys are aware of this and beefing up the training for Epic users who want to master HDRx(TM), Magic Motion, and all the other unique features and challenges that go along with wielding such a powerful instrument.

Thanks Mike for posting this. What's so cool is that it's not something that wasn't possible with another camera -- but the fact it was done in ONE TAKE.

We've had DP's, AC's, and directors drooling lot here ... but on top of the Epic's amazing price/performance ration, the time-saving aspect that it will create with things like this is just phenomenal.

Thanks again :)

Anthony
 
I don't think this is floro flicker. It is probably a strobing effect from the spacing (--------) of the light elements as the car speeds along under them.
 
Thank you Seymour and LightIron! Can't wait to pixel-peep off YouTube. That is pretty darn extreme! It feels very natural. I don't think the audience would have a problem with the latitude. If anything they might think something special just happened, but it wouldn't be a bad thing unless you made it so.

The further away I set the exposure on my 2-stills HDR shots the harder they are to blend in Photoshop. It appears that Graeme hasn't stopped working for a minute since the first posts about HDRx and 18-stops. Thank you Red, thank you Graeme!
 
Guys,

I'm not saying that the idea that stands behind HDRx using shutter speed is not great or even incredible, but trying to say just in the case that EPIC (or scarlet) can record two tracks in hardware

why not to give a try to another option of HDR that can use a clan ISO (high and low) to deal with exposure that two images can be later in post-process called an exposure fusion merged in a sort of HDR.

Again to repeat that maybe you can't get 18 stops of DR with using ISO but the full and truly 15 stops of DR can be achieved easy and with a safe bet in relation to the motion and any electric lighting artifacts (flicker,etc,...).

Simply call it HDRx1 (using shutter speed) and HDRx2 (using ISO) and then choose what can better suite for a (particular) shot.
 
You can always do ISO grading SJ, even with Mysterium build 17. But it is only trying to squeeze as much DR as possible from a single RAW file.

HDRx starts from a basic concept: Two distinct exposures can give you a much wider net to catch light.

What you do with the RAW files after that is entirely up to you. So you could do the same process to both of the independent exposures and try to squeeze all of of them as well if you felt the need.

Now what you are saying is that you are hoping RED will implement this sort of ISO grading technique in-camera, I wouldn't hold my breath. Red is all about RAW, and you are asking for something other than RAW. Perhaps in a new module... but I don't think the returns are worth the development, even if HDRx wasn't around.
 
Roberto,

I'm talking about that EPIC HDRx deal with a sort of bracketing of the two different exposures using different shutter speed, it's a sort of limited and can be applied really only for specialty shots.

Those specialty shots were all the examples shown here till now.

But also I'm talking about another HDRx variant that could use an option to automatically capture both an under and over-exposed alternative images using low and high ISO

and then later in post can be done an exposure fusion tone-mapping that could guarantee about 15 stops of dynamic range — without ever clipping the highlights and any motion or flicker light artifacts.

Could be also called Safe Bet HDRx.
 
I don't think you understood my post SJ. I don't think there is a need for it. The benefits aren't large enough. You quickly run into other limitations such as softening of the image, or saturation problems, which means that this is a whole lot of work for very little gain. I don't think you can get 15 stops, at least I haven't seen 15 I would use. Though I've seen amazing work made possible by noise reduction artists before.

If you already had a shot that can't be replicated, and you need more of the image properly exposed than you already have available, then sure! I'd ask the best colorist to try to get the most out of it. But developing the color science necessary and having the camera do it isn't worth it. This has to be what you are talking about --in-camera grading. Because Red always let us change ISO in post, from the beginning, that is the whole idea of RAW.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Roberto,

I'm talking about that EPIC HDRx™ deal with a sort of bracketing of the two different exposures using different shutter speed, it's a sort of limited and can be applied really only for specialty shots.

Those specialty shots were all the examples shown here till now.

But also I'm talking about another HDRx™ variant that could use an option to automatically capture both an under and over-exposed alternative images using low and high ISO

and then later in post can be done an exposure fusion tone-mapping that could guarantee about 15 stops of dynamic range — without ever clipping the highlights and any motion or flicker light artifacts.

Could be also called Safe Bet HDRx™.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are simply asking for a 2nd track with the same exposure (aperture and shutter speed) with the ability to FLUT one of the tracks in post. That gives the same result as you suggest.

Jim
 
Changing ISO is not changing anything in terms of altering capture of light on the sensor.

It is strictly post process parameter.
If sensor could be made to have sensitivity adjustment than yes.
But so far I didn’t see any gain control implemented on CMOS sensors.
 
Jannard said:
Sounds like you are simply asking for a 2nd track with the same exposure (aperture and shutter speed) with the ability to FLUT one of the tracks in post. That gives the same result as you suggest.

Jim
Click to expand...

I'm talking about a sort of bracketing with two different exposures for a given aperture stop using two different ISO speeds that can squeeze maximum of DR out of sensor at post process of tweaking exposure at a fusion tone-mapping...

That option maybe can't get un ultra HDR of 18 stops but could get surely 14 to 15 stops of DR and put easy EPIC 5K in the same position like an Alexa's HD sort of latitude advantage and also without sacrificing of motion and lighting.

Also maybe to somebody it would look like a same thing as a kind of adjusting curves in RCX but still can give you a half or even one stop more than this.

I was experimenting with MX files and it works but you have to extract two frames from each and then in kind of HDR app to do further adjustment and exposure fusion...
 
Just so you know, the reason why we filmed this is for training. We are a professional online training company with many year experience and we like to think a great track record.

Stu Machwitz is anchoring this work and he and our team have been working with the EPIC to produce some great footage that tests and demonstrates the various aspects of the EPIC.

I agree the EPIC - especially in post - will be a new ball game.
But fun

Mike



AnthonyFlores said:
Jim and Guys,

One thing that seems to be coming clear is that -- because Epic does things that no other cameras have done before it -- I think it's important to develop more extensive training so that people are getting the most from their cameras. This is good for Red in so many ways, I don't even need to explain it ....

And while I haven't attended Reducation (I hope to this year in May or June) -- I'm guessing that you guys are aware of this and beefing up the training for Epic users who want to master HDRx™(TM), Magic Motion, and all the other unique features and challenges that go along with wielding such a powerful instrument.

Thanks Mike for posting this. What's so cool is that it's not something that wasn't possible with another camera -- but the fact it was done in ONE TAKE.

We've had DP's, AC's, and directors drooling lot here ... but on top of the Epic's amazing price/performance ration, the time-saving aspect that it will create with things like this is just phenomenal.

Thanks again :)

Anthony
Click to expand...
 
Sanjin, it's called "grading" when done by hand :-) (or tone mapping when automated.)

HDR (in general, and HDRx in specific) is all about capturing as much data as possible that you can grade from whatever method you so choose to use to grade from, being it curves, power windows, tone mapping techniques, or whatever....

Graeme
 
Sorry to sound negative, but you are aware that the ISO speed is just meta-data right? There is NO hardware gain or adjustment when you adjust ISO - it is the same as adjusting FLUT. This is NOT the case with say a DSLR - like the 5D - but it is in the MX and EPIC.
Jim is correct of course when he says you could just do what you want with two different FLUT controls - but it would not be superior to what RED is doing with HDRx™.
I think you may be extrapolating from what happens in other cameras but the RED EPIC and the Red approach is very different technically.

Mike



Sanjin Jukic said:
I'm talking about a sort of bracketing with two different exposures for a given aperture stop using two different ISO speeds that can squeeze maximum of DR out of sensor at post process of tweaking exposure at a fusion tone-mapping...

That option maybe can't get un ultra HDR of 18 stops but could get surely 14 to 15 stops of DR and put easy EPIC 5K in the same position like an Alexa's HD sort of latitude advantage and also without sacrificing of motion and lighting.

Also maybe to somebody it would look like a same thing as a kind of adjusting curves in RCX but still can give you a half or even one stop more than this.

I was experimenting with MX files and it works but you have to extract two frames from each and then in kind of HDR app to do further adjustment and exposure fusion...
Click to expand...
 
Mike Seymour said:
Sorry to sound negative, but you are aware that the ISO speed is just meta-data right? There is NO hardware gain or adjustment when you adjust ISO - it is the same as adjusting FLUT. This is NOT the case with say a DSLR - like the 5D - but it is in the MX and EPIC.
Jim is correct of course when he says you could just two what you want with two different FLUT controls - but it would not be superior to what RED is doing with HDRx™.
I think you may be extrapolating from what happens in other cameras but the RED EPIC and the Red approach is very different technically.

Mike
Click to expand...

I'm glad you jumped in here to say what I was thinking but I didn't want to hijack your thread any further.

Perhaps a new thread can be started to discuss HDRx concepts and workflow?
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Sanjin, it's called "grading" when done by hand :-) (or tone mapping when automated.)

HDR (in general, and HDRx™ in specific) is all about capturing as much data as possible that you can grade from whatever method you so choose to use to grade from, being it curves, power windows, tone mapping techniques, or whatever....

Graeme
Click to expand...


One really important concept with the EPIC - is that this camera captures assuming a grade, it does not capture (to the .r3d SSD) - to immediately publish. It is a wonderful professional tool that way
 
Mike Seymour said:
Just so you know, the reason why we filmed this is for training. We are a professional online training company with many year experience and we like to think a great track record.

Stu Machwitz is anchoring this work and he and our team have been working with the EPIC to produce some great footage that tests and demonstrates the various aspects of the EPIC.

I agree the EPIC - especially in post - will be a new ball game.
But fun

Mike
Click to expand...

Good to know, Mike thanks. I will have more of a look at your website.

Do you guys anticipate doing any in person workshops about the Epic and workflow in 2011?

Anthony
 
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