Why can't EPIC-X Stage 2's be EPIC-M's + Addl. Hard Cost?

[michael zaletel]

Why can't EPIC-X's be produced on the EPIC-M production line? A production line capable of producing 250 EPIC-M's could perhaps produce the ~500 EPIC-X stage 2's in the next 60 days.

If the labor and materials cost difference on the two production lines is say $5,000, perhaps lots of Stage 2 buyers would be willing to pay the extra hard-cost to get their EPIC-X sooner off the EPIC-M production line. I know I would.

-michael zaletel

 

[Jay Gannon]

Totally different production methods.

 

[Imran Farouk]

cause M's are machined by hand...try doing that many X's by hand...

Plus I think most Stage 2's would like to keep the price low enough so they can spend on extras,

bare in mind M's are also the beta stage so when it hits X it should be pretty damn if not already fully activated and ready to take over...

No doubt they started machining well before Jan to be able to produce 250+

The X line should be able to produce just over or double what the M line could because its all through machines and not hand crafted like the M's...

 

[Jake Bastian]

The Epic-M and Epic-X are the same aside from the manner in which they are manufactured. The price at which they are being offered is representative of what you're suggesting.

 

[michael zaletel]

I understand they are two separate production lines and processes but there must still be a quantifiable hard-cost difference in materials and labor right?

Alternatively, how about an option to apply the full retail value of the EPIC-X Stage 2 package against the EPIC-M package price and pay the difference to get an EPIC-M in place of an EPIC-X Stage 2?

-michael zaletel

 

[jimhare]

The Epic-M and Epic-X are the same aside from the manner in which they are manufactured. The price at which they are being offered is representative of what you're suggesting.

Actually they aren't. The M has a titanium PL mount, the X won't.

When the Epic X line is up and running my guess is it will turn out a few thousand a month and the manufacture/assembly cost to Red will be quite a bit less.

No way they can hand build 7,000 cameras in the timeframe and cost they are offering.

 

[Jake Bastian]

Just quoting from the Epic-M thread:

Practically... no difference. Technically... the cast parts will be slightly more porous both on the surface and inside, plus the part will include draft for casting which the machined parts do not have. Price difference for manufacture is significant.
Jim

Edit: Jim has already said you can get a titanium mount on the X by paying the price difference.

 

[Jannard]

In addition, all boards for EPIC-M are done at low volume (higher cost) for quicker production. There are many manufacturing differences that have cost us a lot more to make these... sooner. The practical (important term) differences aren't noticeable. The actual method of manufacture is distinctly different. You need to be careful before jumping to too many conclusions.

There are many that see the value in owning an EPIC-M now... some have already paid for themselves.

Jim

 

[Jannard]

It is in people's nature to speculate. The problem comes when the speculation is wrong and yet is perceived as correct... leading to a wrong conclusion.

Jim

 

[michael zaletel]

Thanks for answering Jim, I think others missed my point. I wasn't trying to make assumptions about the cost difference. For all I know it could be $5,000 or $20,000. I was trying to focus on the concept of EPIC-X stage 2 buyers being given the option to pay that cost difference to get an EPIC-M in place of an EPIC-X stage 2 including any differences on accessories included.

Might it ever be an option to pay the difference between EPIC-X Stage 2 retail value and the EPIC-M package price?

I was only asking because I know many cannot afford the full EPIC-M price.

-michael zaletel

 

[Michael Hastings]

cause M's are machined by hand...try doing that many X's by hand...

Plus I think most Stage 2's would like to keep the price low enough so they can spend on extras,

bare in mind M's are also the beta stage so when it hits X it should be pretty damn if not already fully activated and ready to take over...

No doubt they started machining well before Jan to be able to produce 250+

The X line should be able to produce just over or double what the M line could because its all through machines and not hand crafted like the M's...

I highly doubt epics are machined by hand - for the body parts it's Cnc milling primarily - pretty much totally programmed and if properly programmed the human operator changes the blocks of aluminum and hits start button. they are amazingly fast these days (apple Cnc machines their laptop bodies rather than casting) although still not as cheap as thousands of cast parts.

Below is an item in my industry machined totally from one block of aluminum, probably at lower volume than epic, and maybe considerably more complex in machining and assembly (other than the sensor block, but not sure how that would differ between M and production X other than better assembly jigs - and the titanium mount- but IIRC that is available as an option for x as well.)
Of course my speculation could be wrong, but hey, I'm bored

Take a look at the front and back shots.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/733756-REG/Aquatica_20066_KM_T2i_Underwater_Housing_f.html

 

[Imran Farouk]

I only say its machined by hand because

because that was what Jannard said

"We are going to machine and hand build a limited number of pre-production EPIC-M packages"

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52244

Also

http://vimeo.com/20945154

"hand-made"

I'm not saying it's not on a production line but I'm saying that it's not going to be like a regular production line where barely any human interaction, there would be more involvement here then there would be on a mass production line

 

[Jannard]

Machine and build by hand is much different that "hand-machined".

Jim

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I only say its machined by hand because

because that was what Jannard said

"We are going to machine and hand build a limited number of pre-production EPIC-M packages"

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52244

Also

http://vimeo.com/20945154

"hand-made"

I'm not saying it's not on a production line but I'm saying that it's not going to be like a regular production line where barely any human interaction, there would be more involvement here then there would be on a mass production line

Jim already answered, but his reply may have been too terse.

The Epic-M camera chassis are CNC machined, then the camera is hand assembled and tested. The hand assembly is the installing of the various boards and sensor block, plus putting the case together- that sort of thing.

Its a great program I wish I could afford to be part of.

It not only serves to get cameras in the hands of users a bit faster with an extraordinarily high build quality ...

it also serves to train a LOT of people about the Red Epic in ways you can only learn by assembling them. At least some future Red techs will really know the guts of these cameras inside and out.

I frankly hope Red can manage to build out a few of every camera model in this way.

 

[michael zaletel]

Okay, let's say the cost difference to RED between producing an EPIC-X Stage 2 package and producing an EPIC-M package is even $20,000. Would it be possible for EPIX-X Stage 2 buyers to pay that $20,000 difference plus whatever they owe on their EPIC-X Stage 2 and get an EPIC-M package now instead of an EPIC-X Stage 2 later?

Seems like a win-win to me.

It's not fair for anyone but RED to determine what that difference in the cost of manufacturing is. They are the only ones that know and there are tons of factors we know nothing about from costs of overhead to costs of different salaries to depreciation costs of machines to higher costs of local replacement parts and on and on.

-michael zaletel

 

[Imran Farouk]

Right, my bad, was thinking there was more involvement in the machining process, anyway,

The above seems pretty fair though I can't just imagine if it seemed a nice enough jump RED would be swamped with M orders

 

[Jake Bastian]

This has been explained and this is what is happening, I'm just writing out the math.

Net price of a Stage 2 Epic-X package (after discount): $19,500
*this price may rise a little due to the addition of the ssd module rather than the cf module as the standard*

Price difference between discounted Epic-X (stage 2) and Epic-M: $38,500

Total cost of Epic-M package: $58,000

Realizing this is a lot of money Jim has allowed purchasers of the M to have the added benefit of keeping their place in line for the Epic-X - there is no requirement that they purchase one however, so I guess purchasers of the M could consider it their stage-2 package.

:beatdeadhorse5:

 

[XiaoSu Han]

Travel back in time, sell your Stage 2 reservation and try to buy an EPIC-M.

Would you pay $30,000 to get an EPIC-M now instead of your EPIC-X later?

And wouldn't RED betray their earlierst adopters if they sell them 58K EPIC-Ms and then begin to sell Stage 2 EPIC-X's a couple weeks after that for a premium of 5K?

 

[Elsie N]

Michael, I get what you are suggesting and it seems fair to me. It does appear to be a win-win as you suggest. It would remove one more Stage 2 Epic X from the queue so that any who are further back could get their Epic X quicker.

Anyone jumping the line by trading their rights for an X to get an M would be paying much more and giving up the fine Stage 2 package that RED has allowed.

Red could still continue sending Epics where they feel they are needed to build the brand because there probably aren't too many people like yourself that would choose to give up their Stage 2 place in order to get an Epic sooner.

There may be other reasons RED would not do this exchange of places, such as keeping the cameras close for the time being to insure quick adjustments when needed, or complete quality control as they hone the firmware.

I'm just saying, as a fellow Epic X customer, I certainly would have no problem with what you suggest if RED felt it could or wanted to implement it.

Maybe someone else can see a downside to the customer base that I can't?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Okay, let's say the cost difference to RED between producing an EPIC-X Stage 2 package and producing an EPIC-M package is even $20,000. Would it be possible for EPIX-X Stage 2 buyers to pay that $20,000 difference plus whatever they owe on their EPIC-X Stage 2 and get an EPIC-M package now instead of an EPIC-X Stage 2 later?

I totally understand RED keeping the lines separate. And they have already made us a heck of a deal on the Stage-2 program as it is. When I look at my Stage-2 reservations and I add in the Bomb EVF plus 2 x 256GB SSDs (or 4 x 128GB), it's still half the price of an Epic-M package.

The EPIC-M is a great deal too if you consider buying an Epic-X body alone is $28K, once Stage-2 and 3 are complete. But nothing trumps the deal we're getting with Epic-X Stage-2.