EPIC to output PRO RES

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I smell chum...

As wonderful as RAW is, and I mean that seriously, transcoding is a deal killer for many of the folks that write the checks on a lot of the projects that pay our bills. I also have high hopes for the quality of a full on camera debayer and scale to a 1080P RGB format like ProRes via KiPro or, if I read between the Red Leader's lines correctly, a nicely integrated module.

As many posters noted in this thread even reasonably well budgeted TV work often uses a mind-numbingly stupid post pipeline for no other reason that extending ROI on existing infrastructure. Creating a clean, ready to edit, 12 bit ProRes 4444 (or other selectable ProRes flavor) file on camera has, as others have noted, serious real world merits.

Ultimately would you better off shooting on a 5D, EX-1, etc than shooting Epic to ProRes? Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[IAN SUN]

You can shoot REDCODE RAW to your SSD and ProRes to an AJA Mini Ki now using EPIC. You get both at the same time. I would also expect there to be another solution in the near future...

Jim

Perhaps one day the title of this thread will prove to be accurate after all

 

[AnthonyFlores]

You can shoot REDCODE RAW to your SSD and ProRes to an AJA Mini Ki now using EPIC. You get both at the same time. I would also expect there to be another solution in the near future...

Jim

Nice!!!!! Happy about this

 

[Olivier Madar]

That should be the best of all solutions :

ProRes for quick project, R3D for the image AND you have a backup for troubles on kiPro CP or SSD


Olivier

You can shoot REDCODE RAW to your SSD and ProRes to an AJA Mini Ki now using EPIC. You get both at the same time. I would also expect there to be another solution in the near future...

Jim

 

[Niko Pueringer]

Throwing my hat in the ProRes module request. ProRes is a fantastic codec, and used by thousands. Don't turn your nose up to the "unrefined masses".

Yes a Ki Pro is great. A ProRes module with choice of resolution and compression is even better.

And it would be killer if pricewise it was on par with the Ki Pro.


(Heck, stay with the times, and include other modules that do other codecs. Take advantage of the modularity, dammit! :smile5: )

 

[Rob Castiglione]

It is about choice and what is appropriate for different projects. I definitely want the choice to be able to record direct to pro res 4444.

 

[Terry Wester]

If we do see a ProRes module, I hope Red doesn't forget about the the Proxy and LT versions of the codec. Our ideal setup would be recording ProRes 422 (Proxy) and Raw R3Ds. This would give us the ability to record hundreds of hours of footage from multiple cameras and have an offline/online workflow. We wouldn't have to worry about transcoding hundreds of hours of footage and it wouldn't take up that much drive space on our servers. Of course we would go back to the R3D's for online/color.

 

[Karl Roeder]

AJA Mini Ki

AJA Mini Ki

You can shoot REDCODE RAW to your SSD and ProRes to an AJA Mini Ki now using EPIC. You get both at the same time. I would also expect there to be another solution in the near future...
Jim

Does anyone know if the source file names are retained when recording to the Mini Ki? Are they somehow embedded?

- k

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

If we do see a ProRes module, I hope Red doesn't forget about the the Proxy and LT versions of the codec. Our ideal setup would be recording ProRes 422 (Proxy) and Raw R3Ds. This would give us the ability to record hundreds of hours of footage from multiple cameras and have an offline/online workflow. We wouldn't have to worry about transcoding hundreds of hours of footage and it wouldn't take up that much drive space on our servers. Of course we would go back to the R3D's for online/color.

ProRes 4444 is RGB 12 Bit. Compared to all other ProRes flavours it matches the Red's SDK best (which also delivers 12Bit RGB off the mildly compressed RAW source), plus it is the only Pro Res derivate that does NOT shift gamma outside of FCP in third party applications.

Arri's Alexa uses ProRes 4444. While Arri RAW is now going to be enabled most productions rely happily on the ProRes recording option and plan to leave it this way. Many projects that use Alexa's ProRes 4444 files are far from cheap indie productions. On the contrary, most of them are productions that were formerly film based. While 4K or even 5K is surely better than 1080p many projects, I would even say most projects, just don't need and want it. Not only for fast turnarounds it's great not to transcode footage, even if it is "only" for finishing purposes.

Red's colour sciences and sensor technology is now so advanced and close to the all-time bench mark film that the anticipated advantage of RAW and the ability to get the last crump of DR out of it renders factually obsolete. Red is now ready for a convenient workflow that the average videographer can understand. The inflationary number of "Red workflow consultants" is not a good sign for Red's post production friendliness in the past. That can change now to the better.

Having the option in Epic to record to ProRes 4444 1080p or 2K will be a big push for Red's camera systems. The possibility to record even 5K with hardly any compression is an even better selling reason, green screen, reframing and for the rare event that a project needs/deserves more resolution than 1080p. 99% of the RedOnes in the field are not shooting a block buster or a precious Arthouse film in the moment.

While I understand fully that 1080p is the NTSC/PAL of tomorrow many projects don't really have a tomorrow. I just finished a national TVC that was posted and broadcasted in SD. Europe's TV-Market is still based on SD PAL.

A 1080p ProRes 4444 Module will sell like hot cakes and is the logical answer to Arri. That's how I read Jim's statement in this thread.

Hans

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Cinedeck EXTREME 2.0:

Cinedeck EXTREME records in full resolution 10-bit cinema-grade mastering formats that can be directly edited in Final Cut, Media Composer, Premiere Pro.

LINK>>>

The Cinedeck Extreme captures using the CineForm Digital Intermediate codec, an extremely high end codec. It will record up to 2k resolution, 12-bit 4:4:4 or 10-bit 4:2:2 in avi or mov.

LINK>>>

There is no need to wait for a sort of RED ProRes 4444 module just because Cinedeck EXTREME Version 2.0 has it today that means

if EPIC HD-SDI is already fully enabled with the latest firmware hopefully that some of EPIC-M owners/testers could try out and tells us more about it...

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Does anyone know if the source file names are retained when recording to the Mini Ki? Are they somehow embedded?

- k

Don't know about Epic, but with Red One and Ki-Pro we are not able to get automatic Rec triggering, let alone direct reading of the filenames. Apparently the Red One is giving out a non-standard RP188 signal?
Hopefully it works with the Epic, otherwise it's useless.
Of course a dedicated Red ProRes module would be even better!

 

[shashbugu]

You can shoot REDCODE RAW to your SSD and ProRes to an AJA Mini Ki now using EPIC. You get both at the same time. I would also expect there to be another solution in the near future...

Jim

Case close, thats all we need to know. Jim is on top of it. I personally don't think Pro-res 4444 on the Epic is the solution. the real solution is a Graeme engineered more compressed 12 bit 2k/3k/4k version of the R3D. A version as lighter or lighter than Prores-4444 than can playback effortlessly in any NLE.

Scratch that , I was just told by my partner here the reason Prores 4444 is a big deal is because you can intercut with other cameras and save a conformed master. Make sense. But why pro-res? why not Cinema-DNG,

 

[Terry Wester]

ProRes 4444 is RGB 12 Bit. Compared to all other ProRes flavours it matches the Red's SDK best (which also delivers 12Bit RGB off the mildly compressed RAW source), plus it is the only Pro Res derivate that does NOT shift gamma outside of FCP in third party applications.

Arri's Alexa uses ProRes 4444. While Arri RAW is now going to be enabled most productions rely happily on the ProRes recording option and plan to leave it this way. Many projects that use Alexa's ProRes 4444 files are far from cheap indie productions. On the contrary, most of them are productions that were formerly film based. While 4K or even 5K is surely better than 1080p many projects, I would even say most projects, just don't need and want it. Not only for fast turnarounds it's great not to transcode footage, even if it is "only" for finishing purposes.

Red's colour sciences and sensor technology is now so advanced and close to the all-time bench mark film that the anticipated advantage of RAW and the ability to get the last crump of DR out of it renders factually obsolete. Red is now ready for a convenient workflow that the average videographer can understand. The inflationary number of "Red workflow consultants" is not a good sign for Red's post production friendliness in the past. That can change now to the better.

Having the option in Epic to record to ProRes 4444 1080p or 2K will be a big push for Red's camera systems. The possibility to record even 5K with hardly any compression is an even better selling reason, green screen, reframing and for the rare event that a project needs/deserves more resolution than 1080p. 99% of the RedOnes in the field are not shooting a block buster or a precious Arthouse film in the moment.

While I understand fully that 1080p is the NTSC/PAL of tomorrow many projects don't really have a tomorrow. I just finished a national TVC that was posted and broadcasted in SD. Europe's TV-Market is still based on SD PAL.

A 1080p ProRes 4444 Module will sell like hot cakes and is the logical answer to Arri. That's how I read Jim's statement in this thread.

Hans

Hans, everyone has different needs, and desires. Choices are good for everyone. Even though Red is a digital Cinema camera, they are about to be in strong competition with just about ever video camera on the market when Epic and Scarlet ships. My company develops and produces reality TV shows. We will be using Epics as our primary cameras, whenever we can get our hands on them. I think there was talk of a H.264 proxy module Jim mentioned in the past. H.264 doesn't work well with the Avid, ProRes does. I am just putting my vote in for a light/offline file format/codec that works well with and AVID MC and doesn't fill up hundreds of terabytes of our fiber channel storage. Having a module that saves ProRes 4444 would of course be the most important, I just want to point out that having the option to use the Proxy and LT version of the codec could be beneficial to some workflows as well.

 

[Rainer Fritz]

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=736568&postcount=2
A very good explanation what the power of RAW is.... one really good arguement from Jeff...
A lot of people don't understand even that.... a lot don't understand that the RED workflow is exact that what they did for tons of years with film... think of the word telecine for example and look what you do with RED RAW material.... it is the best way to start every of your stations in workflow... offline, CC, CGI and you can output of one source EVERY format you want on this planet.... even if its a 4k print or DCP...
But there are also a lot of people which want to use it like a shitty video camera. Shoot copy, edit, playout tape... And always I tell them, guys, RED is not a video camera, it is a Digital Cinema Camera. Then I think sometimes I live on the false side of the planet or Galaxy....
Yeah and for all this guys which want to edit immediately we need a faster workflow as rendering the footage in the van with the rocket....??? I mean we shot a feature and made screenings from a bluray player to a NEC2000, beaming a 60 squaremeter screen from an AVID DNxHD120 offline edit rendered via rocket, only thing I can say is they had their mouths wide open and after the lights went on a big smile....
But sorry... PRORES and specially Quicktime... Offline ok, TV ok... Big Screen not ok even in 4444.
The Quicktime container is the door to hell, thats all I want to say...
When I look into an AVID offline edit, or even an online edit, with all the metadata preserved, Avids understanding of professional working and then I open Final Cut... OMG... It's again the second door to hell...
When was Quicktime introduced??? 15 years ago or more??? for a 8 bit SD signal... ??? and they now packing 12 bits of 1080 and more into it... ??? The Gamma shift problem is nearly same old as the container...???

We need a good alternative to a QT container with prores in it.... !!!! Make it open source and public as fast as possible.... PLEASE... something like MXF... SMPTE compliant...

A little bit emotional but I'm in middle of shooting....

best,
rainer

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Don't know about Epic, but with Red One and Ki-Pro we are not able to get automatic Rec triggering, let alone direct reading of the filenames. Apparently the Red One is giving out a non-standard RP188 signal?
Hopefully it works with the Epic, otherwise it's useless.
Of course a dedicated Red ProRes module would be even better!

Mark,

I was able to get the Kipro minin to Rec trigger a couple of weeks ago on MX Red. The file name and TC are a different story though. Also could only get 720p to work. At the time I did not care too much about resolution as we were just using if for dailies and dropping it into a 1080 FCP timeline. There wasn't enough time to mess with the Kipro mini as we had a lot to shoot in a couple of days so I nixed it. Although what i know about post could barely fill a thimble. The Kipro is close but not quite there, imho.

p