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Red One M camera is still a good deal?

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Daniel Aragão

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Hi there people.

im new here, maybe lots of people have asked it before. i found some good answers before but they are back from the time where we didnt knew even about the MX upgrade reality.

I have my first feature film to be shoot next July. Im doing the DOP with a small crew and i can be very good when i want to be if i have time to try out things before, in the tech aspect of thing at least. Right now my equipement is some hpx and canon 5d with nikon and canon lenses.

I have a 20k budget NOW to buy ALL THE EQUIPEMENT i need for the shooting. I found some good deal for a Red One M body and i want to shoot anamorphic lomo, cause i want the pleasure of the flares and the softness of the old russian lenses. And im not looking for a pristine look on my film.

But im always afraid when buying "old" stuff.

So do you think the Red One M body is already something out dated by now? i mean, the low light performace and the whole camera performace in general? do you think its worth to buy a used Red One M? or am i going to be stuck with a equipement that nobody wants in a short time?

For my price range, do you think this Red M is still the best option?

What would you do with the money that i have to buy the equipement now?

just to let you know, i CAN`T rent a camera here in Brazil for less than what im paying to OWN at least a Red One M. so, rent is not an option. And i Can't wait for the Epic light, cause you know that it's not coming before the end of the year and i have my feature in July...

Thanks for the Help

Daniel
 
M-X is a better low light performer than M. But with proper lighting, new color science, etc. the camera is still a very viable option. If you can pick one up for a good price, jump on it.

In terms of renting the camera out, yes it may have lost some value there. With M-X and now Epic, the market for an M is not as lucrative. But if you are DP and have a say as to what camera gets used, then it may be less of an issue. R1 still holds its own. But if you could get an R1 M-X you'll be in really good shape.
 
of the current crop of cameras actually delivered in numbers, only M wil deliver 4k for cinematic release in 5 years time, too...

As Steve says, with the right light the M is a great camera.

Rentals may be off, but the imagery is great.

The MX has gotten an extra 2 stops in the lowlights (which translates to: less noise)
Check if it is an upgradeable camera or not. If it is, you can upgrade to MX at a later stage.
 
Ive heard over the years about how hard is to shoot with a Red. I think i can do it without so many problems but im sure its not going to be as easy as the 5D or something like that. Im not up to have lots of lights, thats not my style. The film is all black and white and i can have some grain in the final image, so thats why i was thinking about taking the chance on the regular M sensor. How do you think the camera Works in low light compared to a 5d mark2 ?
Once a director told me that was shooting with the Red One and it got so hot and complicated that they used the B camera (5d mark2) as the main camera. Brazil is f****** hot, so i was worried back then. Is this problem solved?
I know its good to have the film in 4k. Im going to do a transfer in the Cinevator machine to 2k, in the end. Do you i still need the 4k while shooting? And how about the anamorphic in 4k red one? Is it good?

Right now i just hate the regular 5d Mud images and compression sucks. You cant go far in the post. Thats the main reason im considering the Red after 2 years shooting shorts and films with the 5D...
 
I find RED1 wayyyy simpler to shoot and post than 5D.

Th 5D can do lower light than the R1 M, though

Rent/Borrow one and do a test. It's hard to measure "little" light. Depends on your preference, glass, T-stop ++++
Without a test under the relevant conditions you are messed up whatever camera you choose.

YES you want to shoot 4k.
What makes the R1 nice for 2k delivery is amongst other things oversampling.
The 5d is for all practical reasons undersampling...

AND if you shoot the RED at 2k, you have a S16 cam, not a S35...

Shoot both, do some hair, a bit of deep focus, motion and vertical lines.

I generally dislike 5D images when the camera is moving. The slow shutter kills off a lot of those images.

But most importantly: Do a practical comparative test with relevance to your production...
 
Canons in heat? I am not sure about the 5D MKII, but the others in the family are way hotter than any Red, at least IMHO. My mates 7D and my 550D will light up the Overheat Icon sometimes within 5-7 minutes. I was shooting in Death Valley last spring with my Canon... almost a waste of time. Under and umbrella even it would shoot 3 minutes then overheat.

YMMV and there are certainly many here and elsewhere with hundreds of hours more experience than me. Just sharing my experience with both.

When you buy an R1, a quick trip to Target and buy a bunch (I bought 30+) of the Coleman icepacks, crease them in the middle before freezing and they sit nicely over the top of the cam.

And like Gunleik, Red workflow has so much more flexibility and the 5D sure doesn't like patterns when I have shot with it.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
of the current crop of cameras actually delivered in numbers, only M wil deliver 4k for cinematic release in 5 years time, too...

As Steve says, with the right light the M is a great camera.

Rentals may be off, but the imagery is great.

The MX has gotten an extra 2 stops in the lowlights (which translates to: less noise)
Check if it is an upgradeable camera or not. If it is, you can upgrade to MX at a later stage.
Click to expand...

I think every camera can be upgraded to mx regardless of the upgrades rights. If it is not upgradable, it will not be eligible for the discount on the bundle with the redrocket but can be mx'ed.
 
Yeah. Good. The 5D has a bad shutter. Its crap. Thats what i wanted to hear, actually.
Maybe the af100 will be a good option now over the Red M? Hmmm dont know.
If i buy the used Red, can i trade for the Epic in 2 years from now plus the extra 10k or sometthing?

Talking about heat issues, now i remember my short film called 'dont drop me home' that was shot with the d90, transfered to 35mm and played in the biggest short film festival of the world in Clermont-Ferrand 2010, but while i was shooting i just experienced the baddest filmmaking days of my life, the camera used to shut off in seconds because of the heat, it was crazy, but even so i tried cause i was bored about the Letus. 35mm adaptor is really bad, man.

What i want is to have comfort and fun while filming, and yes, if i spent 20k in a camera i want to be sure that im going to have it. A d90 costs only 1k so i could take a chance on it.

I loved the r3d workflow that i tried. And talking about natural day light footage, i havent seen too many upgrades from the M to the MX sensor, at least nothing so big that i couldnt come close in post production with the M sensor footage. Am i right?

Im feeling a little bit unsured about buying it now maybe just because people are only talking about the Epic and Scarlet, but the problem is, last time i had the money to buy a Red One it was back in early 2008 and besides having the money i just couldnt have the camera in time for the project, so no deal. And even now i was thinking about buying the SSD module but they dont have it In Stock at Red, so maybe i have to wait 1-2 months for it. The same thing with the Bomb Evf that people bought last year and they didnt have it still. So its going to be a hell of a anxious waiting even if i buy a expensive Stage 2 right now cause im almost sure im not going to get my hands on one before July. And even so maybe its better to get the Red One M now and pratice a lot than to get the Epic a week before the shooting, dont you think so?

Thanks for the comments
 
I would look for a secondhand MX, or budget for the MX upgrade if you want to shoot with few lights or in low light. But the R1-MX will be able to shoot amazing pictures as long as you own it! Watch The Social Network for R1-MX low light shooting.

It is big and heavy though, if you're coming from the video or 5D world, which is my main gripe with it!
 
the MX gains about 2 stops of useable latitude over the M. They come in the darks...

I'd actually bothered to try the cam, if you have one on the hand.

I regularily (like daily) use either M or MX, and I am very happy with both for the whole signalchain. I'd take the M over a 5D any day for over all filmmaking capacity.

But our pririties may differ...

What kind of glass are you planning to use?

For handheld, I've found the batterybelt + LCD + CF + light optics + clipon to be the best tool to get the mass down on camera in a single man operation situation...

This is more or less what the RED 18-50 was meant to do...
It is very slow, though...
 
I want to use these square front anamorphic 2.4T.and some Nikon lenses, speed lenses. Nothing more than 2.8.

My film has only 25-30% of night scenes, and nothing too complicated... Anyway these 2 stops can make a difference, but dont know if im going to upgrade right now as this step will cost me 40% of what im paying for the Body

What more do you recommend?
 
Buy your lenses and a good medium small o'connor head and sticks.

Lenses and sticks never go out of style.


I have a feeling you might be able to get an Epic S by the time you make your movie.

You can upgrade to an Mx if you sell that 5D and hpx.

Sell that 5D while there is still some market value (unless you are a big stills guy)...

Once you go Red you won't want to go back.

I'm going to assume that you want to do your own post work. A red rocket is a "necessary" tool.
 
I have cineform 4k and i like it. Cs5. I dont need to display in 4k. I can playback smoothly in 1/2 resolution and even edit alrady in 4k online.

Do you think is a huge difference to have a MX red?

Just to let you know, for me the best use of Red ive seen on screen was on Antichrist by Lars von trier, an old Red One, right?
 
yeah sure.

the set and the light for sure was very intense in some scenes, its not a low budget film, but i know Lars don't like to wait in a movie set, so i think they didnt use too much light like a regular hollywood indie film or so.

Gunleik, do you know if a used R1 M serial 4xxx, non-executed, can be able to be traded for the Epic in the future?

thanks
 
Some M's are eligble for stage 3. Best thing is to check the exact serial with RED before you pull the trigger. But from the sound of it, you're good...
 
5D will cause so many problems you will find it a very, very expensive cam to shoot with, and all that lost time and so many lost shots to in the end have a vastly inferior image quality. Red is much easier and faster to shoot with, and you can do so many more things that 5Ds limitations forbid. Yes it weighs more, but really, who cares? A single PA solves that problem for you, and many here, myself included have shots many days on Red by ourselves or with one person. All you need is a good wheeled case.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
5D will cause so many problems you will find it a very, very expensive cam to shoot with, and all that lost time and so many lost shots to in the end have a vastly inferior image quality. Red is much easier and faster to shoot with, and you can do so many more things that 5Ds limitations forbid. Yes it weighs more, but really, who cares? A single PA solves that problem for you, and many here, myself included have shots many days on Red by ourselves or with one person. All you need is a good wheeled case.
Click to expand...
...and some SSDs and you're really cooking. In my opinion a R1 with SSD and Bomb EVF is not so beefy. As we will see with Epic, once you start adding modules, and rig it out for feature work, it takes on a size comparable to R1. The beauty of Epic is you can strip most of it away and then it really does become a DSLR size rig.

Daniel, you'll find R1 an indie filmmaker's dream cam. Whether it's M or M-X. Filmmaking is visual storytelling. Put emphasis on lighting, composition, art direction, acting, sound, etc. and I promise you won't be disappointed with your camera purchase.
 
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