Help a newbie who is interested in a RED camera

[Frederik Sulser]

Hi

I'm a newbie in this forum and in the world of RED cameras... So far I use a Sony EX1 and a Letus Extreme to shoot my footage.. But the RAW format, the incredible resolution and the possible 120 fps are a very good selling point. But I can't afford 40'000 $ for a new Red one MX (with all the accessories). Now I was checking offers for used RED one MX's. And found a few offers for 25000 $, which look pretty complete...
Can you guys maybe give me some hints on what to look for, what prices are reasonable, and if maybe it made more sense to wait a little longer (as I'm in no hurry, the EX1 is a fine workhorse so far - it just doesn't give me the same creative posiibilities as a RED would). I know the EPIC is about to come out, so maybe prices will drop a little (I don't expect it to be much... but I just founded a company and really have to be carefull with the expenses...).

And I would also be glad if people answered who are not currently selling their RED one - it might be a little hard to believe if somebody answered: I have a RED one pre MX, which is better than MX and 40'000 is a very good price ;-)

(By the way I work on a Media Composer 5 Mojo DX - so I guess I'm covered there (or hope so at least))

Second question I would have. Everybody here is talking of the upgrades to the EPIC - If I would buy a RED one, how does this work, If I wanted to upgrade in the future - will there always be a deal, or is it just now at the lunch of the EPIC? And what exactly is the deal....

I would be very thankful for any hints you can give a newbie, who is looking to buy a RED in the near or far future...
(also depends a little on the jobs to come..)

Regards

Frederik

@admin: Hope this is the right part of the forum to post this - if not: sorry, it's my first post and please move it - thanks

 

[Uli Plank]

If somebody tries to tell you the M is better than MX: don't trust him or her!

If you can wait, I suppose prices will come down a bit for used R1s after Epics are delivered for all Stage 2 orders. How much? Get a crystal ball…

No deal for upgrading if the R1 you buy has been executed.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'd wait until EPIC starts shipping unless you have a pressing need.

It sounds like you don't have a pressing need.

As to your post solution... if you've been working with XDCAM RedCode is going to be a world of techno hurt by comparison. You'll be pushing 8 times the data and 4 times the resolution. Red footage is 12 bits per pixel, and XDCAM is 8 bits per pixel- that's a lot more compute power.

Red Rocket is also highly recommended. Rocket debayers the footage, after which your NLE can deal with it as normal. Debayering is compute intensive- hence special purpose hardware. Yes it works with MC5, but I've heard bad things about the configuration and support in MC5.

I'd start testing your RED pipeline now and wait on any sort of camera decision.

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Thanks guys - that's right, I might want to test the pipeline first. Does anybody know know where I can get some RAW RED footage to test that... maybe a two or three short clips so I have something to edit...

I also agree with the waiting, I just wanted to ask now, as for us Swiss guys, the Dollar is pretty low at the moment

Another question, Is there a way to upgrade an M to an MX? if yes, where can one do that and what does it cost....

And one last question: As far as I heard RED cameras are well built ) - so If I want to buy a used one -how important is the number of hours it was already used. (I don't really give a damn about how it looks, the inside is what has to be working properly..) Is there something that tends to break over time (like the shutter on a DSLR) - or does the sensor somehow loose quality over time (don't see why but asking never hurts)?


Ok that's it for the questions - any hints or advises from you guys with experience (for workflow, prices, and where to be careful) are greatly appreciated...


regards

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You can upgrade the RED from M to MX @ RED.

Uli is right, the MX is "better" on a number of things. The M is an excellent camera, though (on Build 30 onwards).

The most important difference is the light sensitivity, which translates to less noise under low exposure.

The reason the M is not faring bad anyways, is that the color-scinence introdused with the MX has migrated to the M, which has improved the SNR on the M tremendously.

I think of them more in terms of "different" than good/bad.
(And yes: I have an Epic on order and am not about to sell an M... )

I use both M and MX regularily...

For rentals, I guess an MX is a better choice.

For personal use, it's a matter of making the cam perform at its best. They are different, but used right, both are excellent...
The MX is maybe "simpler/easier" to work with, though...

If you get hold of an un-upgraded M on the cheap, check with RED that it is upgradeable before you pull the trigger!
But if I had to choose between an MX sensor and the Rocket for post-processing, I'd be hard pressed giving an absolute advice...

Cheers!

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

The most important difference is the light sensitivity, which translates to less noise under low exposure.

Jep... What light situations are you shooting at most of the time?
The MX sensor is superior in low light and diffuse light situations. Also if you go to VFX a lot I'd highly recommend getting the MX just because of the better noise ratio (ISO 800 on MX vs. ISO 320 on M) - also for rental it is a better choice as a selling argument... You can find some good comparisons on the web if you look around a little bit.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Why not go for a Scarlet 8X or the interchangeable? If you have a 25K budget, you will go a long way in getting a real good kit, and it is 3K, well above what you are working with now.
Look into the Scarlet 8X and the interchangeable version, and you might just have your answer there, if you are willing to way a bit. According to Jim, the Scarlet should be available soon after NAB 2011....
It is going to be a great camera.
Don't forget that when you start working with these cameras, you will need lots of HardDrive space, and a RED Rocket is also a must, so think that you will have to add these to your budget as well (this is if you are posting you own stuff).
I ended up buying the Rocket and a MAXX Digital Evo 16TB after posting my first film, it was not an easy process making the film without them...The next 5 films were a breeze...
I also have the Sony EX1 and a EX3 and a HVX 200, but after shooting on the RED, I find it very difficult to shoot again with these cameras, and when I do, I usually regret it....

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Wow what a nice forum, everybody chipping in and giving advice Thanks a lot guys...

As said I will definitely wait to buy the RED camera... Maybe I can even get a big job in the future that pays for an EPIC Let's see... But, for the jobs I currently have the EX 1 will do, and for filming of events and stuff, I'll probably still stick to it, for weight and easy post purposes...

I also decided to go with the MX sensor for sure, as I will use it a lot for VFX - my company does a lot of 3D animation and the lower noise ratio will be very helpful for tracking and stuff... Normally I shoot with nice lighting kits, so there is enough light. But in a long day, a badly lit scene might sneek in and it's usually more expensive to go back shooting because you didn't light correctly than getting the best possible option in the beginning...

I'll probably also invest in a Red Rocket... hopefully I'll get it to work properly with my MC 5 (or 6 by then ;-)) I'll also ask my Avid reseller about this, he is usually very good with these sorts of things...

HD Space shouldn't be that big of a deal - as I have a 16TB RAID, which pretty easy to upgrade...


OK thanks a lot to all of you - really nice forum, with constructive comments - and after I know all this, waiting to buy a RED will even be harder - but I'm sure now, it is the right decision...


Cheers..

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

waiting to buy a RED will even be harder

Don't worry - the good thing about waiting (if you can - if you cannot it is always bad) is that the software improves steadily over time. REDCINE-X gets updated every few months, STORM will become a final version soon, the NLE-companys are improving their RED-workflows (only Apple is a little too slow for my taste) and also the Accessories are improving or getting updated... if you can wait you don't loose anything in the meantime - just keep an eye on the delivery-times or get in contact with RED directly before you place your order as it can take some time until you get your camera.

In the meantime you should get some sample-footage (I'm sure you'll find a few .R3D files here) to test the possible workflows in your environment to save some time later on. RED can still be pretty heavy on the post-production side compared to the workflows for your current equipment - just keep that in mind!

 

[Michael Olsen]

the software improves steadily over time

This is something that continually shocks me.

RED has the ability to update the color science software that is used in REDCINE-X. Thanks to REDCODE RAW it can make footage you shot years ago look better today. Definitely something that is unlike working with traditional video codecs, and something which is a very welcome benefit of shooting RED!

 

[Mark Phelan]

Couple of thoughts. First, I wouldn't worry about M vs MX as much as some would have you believe. The original Mysterium is still a fantastic sensor and can always be upgraded to the MX should you desire. Second, why a used R1 versus the Scarlet? 4KHD vs 3K.

 

[Uli Plank]

Yes, maybe I was a bit strict regarding M vs. MX – after all, we didn't upgrade here, since we are waiting for stage 3 and rather wanted to get a RED Rocket. But I had the chance to work with a MX next to our M. While MX is better, as long as you have enough light, M is still worlds apart from your EX-1.

Actually we carefully tested M against EX-1 for a specific available-light job where the DoP aimed at something very lightweight. Even without filtering, the M was better. After filtering with Neatvideo, the client was very impressed.

I just wanted to say that nobody can claim the M is better than MX.

 

[Stivan Widick]

Take a look at the Epic-S as well. The final specs are yet to be published, but the camera will be available later this year and will be around $12K for the body (brain) itself. The Epic and Scarlet models are small and lightweight.

 

[Michael McVicar]

I also decided to go with the MX sensor for sure, as I will use it a lot for VFX - my company does a lot of 3D animation and the lower noise ratio will be very helpful for tracking and stuff...

If doing a lot of VFX tracking work, it might be worth looking at the HDRX solutions being developed now. HDRX is not available in the R1 but will be in the Scarlet and Epic. Just a heads up as this is still an ongoing process. Cheers

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Good thing I decided to wait then - as it seems so much is in progress at the moment...

HDRx™ also sounds pretty promising, for those "impossible" lighting Situations.. For tracking, this really might help, even though I'm pretty amazed how well Syntheyes performs with any kind of footage... But for 2D tracking in Fusion, AE, or in Avid directly this might help a lot...

Where can I get some specs on the Scarlet... This seems to be a valid option, as I don't really need the 4K (at the moment?) and also the EPIC-S sounds great.... Why is it so much cheaper than the "normal" EPIC?
(I think the EPIC Body is 28'000, right?)
I kind of start to loose overview over the different models...
Is there a PDF or something where the specs of all these cameras are specified? I would love to have a look.. Lightweight also sounds good, as I don't really need to buy a 10K tripod if I don't have to
But what I really would love to have, besides the big sensor for DOF, the high resolution, the good low light performance with low noise, the RAW recording for post - is the high framerate.
What about the Scarlet in terms of framerate, on the RED webpage I can't find any specifics so far...
The EPIC on the other hand looks wonderful there 120 fps at full rez.. unbelievable... and 225 at 2K - stretch out one second into nine... I start thinking I should wait even longer. earn more, and head for the EPIC directly....
But as mentioned I don't know anything about the Scarlet so far - So if ther is a thread, or even better a PDF with all the different models and their specifications that would help a lot...

I also heard something about limited amount of cameras that will be produced, but this is just at a certain stage right? There won't be a limited number of total cameras... right?

And one last question, as mentioned in the thread I'm still looking for some RAW Red files, to check about workflow... I searched around a little (but don't want to waist hours), maybe one of you guys knows, where I could download 3-4 RAW red files - content is abolutely unimportant... It's just to get to know the workflow...

Cheers

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Hi

It's me again. I'm still wondering if there is maybe a PDF or a thread or something, where all the known facts about the different EPIC editions and the SCARLET are written down in a pretty compact way (Not in a 12 page thread where people are discussing if it has this and that )

That would help me a lot, and give me something to look at while waiting for the cameras to hit the market

regards

Frederik
​

 

[Curtis Stanton]

Good thing I decided to wait then - as it seems so much is in progress at the moment...

HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™ also sounds pretty promising, for those "impossible" lighting Situations.. For tracking, this really might help, even though I'm pretty amazed how well Syntheyes performs with any kind of footage... But for 2D tracking in Fusion, AE, or in Avid directly this might help a lot...

Where can I get some specs on the Scarlet... This seems to be a valid option, as I don't really need the 4K (at the moment?) and also the EPIC-S sounds great.... Why is it so much cheaper than the "normal" EPIC?
(I think the EPIC Body is 28'000, right?)
I kind of start to loose overview over the different models...
Is there a PDF or something where the specs of all these cameras are specified? I would love to have a look.. Lightweight also sounds good, as I don't really need to buy a 10K tripod if I don't have to
But what I really would love to have, besides the big sensor for DOF, the high resolution, the good low light performance with low noise, the RAW recording for post - is the high framerate.
What about the Scarlet in terms of framerate, on the RED webpage I can't find any specifics so far...
The EPIC on the other hand looks wonderful there 120 fps at full rez.. unbelievable... and 225 at 2K - stretch out one second into nine... I start thinking I should wait even longer. earn more, and head for the EPIC directly....
But as mentioned I don't know anything about the Scarlet so far - So if ther is a thread, or even better a PDF with all the different models and their specifications that would help a lot...

I also heard something about limited amount of cameras that will be produced, but this is just at a certain stage right? There won't be a limited number of total cameras... right?

And one last question, as mentioned in the thread I'm still looking for some RAW Red files, to check about workflow... I searched around a little (but don't want to waist hours), maybe one of you guys knows, where I could download 3-4 RAW red files - content is abolutely unimportant... It's just to get to know the workflow...

Cheers

Link to R3D files see post #89 for short r3d shot with Scarlet Fixed.

Link to Scarlet Fixed demonstration see post #1.

Links to RedCineX 356E

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Thanks a lot man - so let's start geting my Media composer into trouble then...

 

[Curtis Stanton]

Forgot your original focus was the RED 1 which will even further stress your editing system.

M-Xed RED 1 R3D files from M-X show reel These files will reflect the higher bit rate of the RED 1 compared to the Scarlet fixed and will allow you to compare the quality of the fixed R3Ds to the RED 1 R3Ds.

 

[Frederik Sulser]

Cool - thanks As son as I finish my current project - I'll be checking on how well my system can take the workload.

Thanks for the help..