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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Follow Focus recommendations appreciated

R

Robert Knoll

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Good Day!

What follow focus units are you gents recommending these days for a Red One with Red Primes? The Arri FF-5 HD is nice but pricey and I dont care about 15mm rods as I am sticking with 19's. WARNING: Stupid question approaching! With the zoom lens, is it possible to have two units to adjust the focus and zoom conveniently?:001_unsure:

Have a great day!
 
What is your objection to the Arri FF units?

If its budget, then I'd point you at Cinevate's Durus follow focus. I have two, they are solid and have no measurable backlash.

I literally get more backlash from my fingers not being perfectly rigid than I do from that FF.

As to your second question, yes you can mount more than one FF if you like to control focus zoom and iris.

It gets kind of cramped on the rods though.

I do this most often when I want to split the workload. I'll mount a FF on the operator side to run the zoom, and a FF on the AC side for focus. That works great for slow push in/zoom out moves and the like.

What most people do who need that is use a wireless motorized FIZ controller. (FIZ=Focus Iris Zoom)

That gets you two things.

First off all you have on camera is the motor, which is typically much smaller than a FF unit.

It also means that your 1AC doesn't have to ride the dolly with you.

You have separate physical interfaces for focus iris and zoom that are easier to manipulate than three knobs on the camera.

A lot of nicer FIZ wireless units have data displays of all sorts.

They are not cheap though.

They also add the problem of a remote display with low lag. Often that means the AC ends up standing with the director and looking at their monitor.
 
Arri FF4 works perfectly with the Red Pro Primes. It's also the industry standard so you can't really go wrong. The new O'Connor CFF1 looks interesting as well but I haven't tested it. If you do a search you'll find several threads on the same topic... and with the same conclusions!
 
Steven-Marc C. said:
Arri FF4 works perfectly with the Red Pro Primes. It's also the industry standard so you can't really go wrong. The new O'Connor CFF1 looks interesting as well but I haven't tested it. If you do a search you'll find several threads on the same topic... and with the same conclusions!
Click to expand...

I realize now that I didn't make this clear... but I do recommend the ARRI units.

I also recommend the Chrosziel units.

I haven't worked with the O'Connor, but from "playing" with them I'd be eager to use one on set.

I launched into the bit about the Cinevate because I assumed that there was an objection based on price to the Arri. (Which is EXACTLY why I have Cinevate)
 
Arri LFF-1 - arguably the most versatile FF, lightest, smallest and, as nice as O'Connor and Chrosziel are, in a class of its own. Pricey, but you will buy a FF only once as there is no better FF that I can think of.

O'Connor is probably the best value for money, but way too large and too heavy for my liking.
 
Depends on how much you want to spend. Arri FF4 is the top on my list, especially if you plan on renting your gear - it's what 9 of 10 clients demand. They're super simple to use and rugged. They will not clear a RED 18-85. So if you have that lens you may want to consider O'Connor. I also like the OConnor for its adaptability and clearance (all big zooms). Unfortunately, my AC's did not. At the end of the day, I had to defer to those pulling focus for me. If I was an AC, I would've kept it. I think once AC's learn it, they'll love it.

For less than half the price my favorite one sided non studio follow focus is the Chrosziel 206-01. Again, simple design: one tie down knob that secures it to rods and to lens. Doesn't get much simpler. Also, unlike the some other lower cost FF's, the gear can flip to the other side in seconds. All the mechanics have dampening, giving it a solid pro feel. Least amount of backlash (less than Arri's FF1). You can also get a small gear that makes it ideal for small draw cine lenses and still lenses.

Then the last one that's often overlooked is Chrosziel's two sided studio FF. Very sleek, light and simple to use. I did a feature in China on one of these and my AC dug it. The feature I love is you can adjust the backlash on it. Overtime, gears wear and this adjustment compensates for it. It'll run you about 3800 with all the fixins. Though used ones pop up all the time.

Check out these reviews: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/video/freshdv_follow_focus_system_reviews/
 
Tim Naylor said:
I also like the OConnor for its adaptability and clearance (all big zooms). Unfortunately, my AC's did not. At the end of the day, I had to defer to those pulling focus for me. If I was an AC, I would've kept it. I think once AC's learn it, they'll love it.
Click to expand...

You know, I'm a bit past merely tired of all these "old hands" who are used to a particular tool and only want to work with it.

I specifically look for adaptability when hiring crew- and I am loyal to my crew.

If a 1AC, or really any crew member, complains about a piece of gear, my first question is if they have their preferred replacement on set and included in their rate?

Otherwise its their job to do their job on whatever production provides.

Now, if an AC whips out their FF4 or an ARRI WRS kit in response to that question, mad mad props. I'll make sure they get their gear insured, and if there is budget available I'll throw in some cash too.

And they'll get a call for the next show where my regular 1st can't come or I need more than one 1st.
 
You guys are fantastic! I should have given you a bit more info. Apologies. I for the most part have no assistants and have to do everything myself for smaller productions. I left eng behind which is my background and it sure was handy having all those servos! For now, I am trying to make life as simple and convenient as possible. The Arri looks sweet but a little rich. Not that I dont appreciate the craftsmanship! I will purchase if it is my best option. Having a manual FIZ (thanks for that) would be the ultimate but even a FZ would be good. I totally understand that the front end of the rig will get conjested. I will delve into each and everyones suggestions on the web. All further comments are gratefully accepted as always.

Cheers!
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
You know, I'm a bit past merely tired of all these "old hands" who are used to a particular tool and only want to work with it.

I specifically look for adaptability when hiring crew- and I am loyal to my crew.

If a 1AC, or really any crew member, complains about a piece of gear, my first question is if they have their preferred replacement on set and included in their rate?

Otherwise its their job to do their job on whatever production provides.

Now, if an AC whips out their FF4 or an ARRI WRS kit in response to that question, mad mad props. I'll make sure they get their gear insured, and if there is budget available I'll throw in some cash too.

And they'll get a call for the next show where my regular 1st can't come or I need more than one 1st.
Click to expand...

I hear you. I would love it if they did become comfortable with the system right away. But as we saw it, it was slowing them down. I totally understand adaptability, but with this complaint, they had a case. Their preferred FF was faster and simpler to use, adaptability or not.

But I don't adhere to the adage that it's their job to make do with what we give them. For me, the first AC's primary job is keeping things sharp. Our AC's have been working with us on several films because they have the "gift" of being able to follow focus under some of the most demanding situations. And they're good people too. So yes, I will cater to their needs if it helps them to do better job. If my operator can't stand a Mantis because he feels it rides to high, I'll find them something else.

When my crew complains about a piece of gear, I take it seriously. If my key tells me the C stands are bottom of the barrel, I know that'll slow us down as they "try and make do". If my gaffer says the 18k ballast is dicey, you're damn straight we'll switch it out by lunch. If my AC's complain that the new FF has knobs that are not easily accessible and a focus wheel that is much slower to swap to the dumbside, I know by the end of the day after 30-40 lens swaps, we lost 15 minutes and the shoot lost a setup. Add another half hour under Winter conditions.

So please, understand, they're not being divas. They're just covering our butts, making sure they're not stuck with gear that'll slow the team down. Now if they were bad at pulling focus to begin with, that's another story all together. In all, the package we've designed is for simplicity of use and effective performance. Which is why we eschew certain makes of gear (ie. Red Cradle). So I do my best to afford my AC's the best gear to do their job, whenever possible. And for them, because of the simplicity, action and ease of ease, the best performance is found in an FF4. If it's the same price as their main competitor, than it's a no brainer, get what your AC's like, unless you plan to pull focus yourself.
 
Robert Knoll said:
You guys are fantastic! I should have given you a bit more info. Apologies. I for the most part have no assistants and have to do everything myself for smaller productions. I left eng behind which is my background and it sure was handy having all those servos! For now, I am trying to make life as simple and convenient as possible. The Arri looks sweet but a little rich. Not that I dont appreciate the craftsmanship! I will purchase if it is my best option. Having a manual FIZ (thanks for that) would be the ultimate but even a FZ would be good. I totally understand that the front end of the rig will get conjested. I will delve into each and everyones suggestions on the web. All further comments are gratefully accepted as always.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

If you're doing your own pulling, make sure you have a disc that faces you or a conical disc. My recommendations would be the Arri MFF1 or the Chrosziel 206-01. The Arri has more features but also more play. The Chrosziel has fewer features but I like the action, less play and simplicity on the Chrosziel better. It's almost a coin toss.
 
Tim Naylor said:
So please, understand, they're not being divas. They're just covering our butts, making sure they're not stuck with gear that'll slow the team down.

...

So I do my best to afford my AC's the best gear to do their job, whenever possible. And for them, because of the simplicity, action and ease of ease, the best performance is found in an FF4. If it's the same price as their main competitor, than it's a no brainer, get what your AC's like, unless you plan to pull focus yourself.
Click to expand...

I get what you are saying.

If their choices were a RedRock or one of those skateboard wheel friction FF's I could see their point... but between an O'Connor and an Arri FF4- the difference in ability to get a shot is negligible.

Once you are picking nits at that level you are being a diva.

Like I said, if that tool is so critical, then buy one for yourself and carry it with you to sets. If they have some junk you can't use- then you have your tool.

I'm a bit more... "indie" than you.

The gear is the gear. Shoot with it or go home.

I bought the Cinevate because, while it sure isn't the final word, it works and its fast to set up. Its a known minimum. It sure beats some of the cr4p I've seen on sets- from a broken ARRI to badly maintained RedRock. I hate walking my crew into an unknown.
 
You can take any two single-sided FFs or any two double-sided FFs and in many situations, they'll be capable of doing pretty much what you wanted them to.

Most differences between individual FF designs come down to issues of problem-solving that may be relevant to you, or may not be relevant to you. The reason why you would look at a piece of equipment that offers something you don't need at the time? Because you may need it in the future, which is something only you can judge. There are FF units that got immediate market acceptance but faded with time because their design criteria became obsolete, and there are other examples that went the other way around.

Best thing to do is recognize your needs and study a product carefully. In the internet era, this should be especially easy -- the manufacturers' websites have a tremendous amount of detailed information, but sadly, much of this is often overlooked or read only perfunctorily. People like me and Eric are also always available to answer questions about the products we represent. Afterwards, think about whether a product's advantages are worth its tradeoffs (there will always be tradeoffs for every advantage... just a truth of engineering these things).

If there had never been any need for innovation and new features in the FF world, at least five of the FF units mentioned in this thread would never have come to be... but they did all come to be and have all been successful.

Cheers

Jim
 
Hey Jim,

My preference is your Cff-1. But I currently have the good old Willytech. (If anyone is not familiar with these they are extremely modular and robust.) I had a funny thought the other day and wondered if the drive module for the Willy would slid on to the bridge of the Cff-1 making a sort of a light weight Franken focus?
 
I like the CFF-1, but the ACs I typically work with still prefer the FF-4. The CFF-1 has more configurations and adaptability, but is also a bit clunky and slows down most ACs until they get to know it. Both units are top notch.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
I get what you are saying.

If their choices were a RedRock or one of those skateboard wheel friction FF's I could see their point... but between an O'Connor and an Arri FF4- the difference in ability to get a shot is negligible.

Once you are picking nits at that level you are being a diva.

Like I said, if that tool is so critical, then buy one for yourself and carry it with you to sets. If they have some junk you can't use- then you have your tool.

I'm a bit more... "indie" than you.

The gear is the gear. Shoot with it or go home.

I bought the Cinevate because, while it sure isn't the final word, it works and its fast to set up. Its a known minimum. It sure beats some of the cr4p I've seen on sets- from a broken ARRI to badly maintained RedRock. I hate walking my crew into an unknown.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with being a diva or a rugged "indie" guy. It's time. If the cumulative time lost on one piece of gear over another is 15 min or more per day, than that piece of gear costs me too much. I have my AC's help create the camera lists once they know the nature of the shoot and how much we're going to spend on camera. So "shoot or go home, gear is the gear" really doesn't work. I agree the tool is critical but being a standard piece that every rental house carries, no one ever expects them to own it.

That said the difference between the O'Connor and FF4 is not negligible. They are radically different approaches. The OC is more complicated but more adaptable where the Arri is far simpler but less adaptable.
 
I agree with Tim about speed being a potential factor in favor of the FF4.

From an owner's perspective, I chose the CFF-1 because of versatility. There have been times when the FF4 just won't work well with large-barrel lenses (zooms and wide anamorphics spring to mind). In those situations, I've lost time because of the FF4.

The biggest thing to keep in mind if considering the CFF-1 is that with that versatility and adjustability comes a slight but present learning curve. It's not difficult to figure out by any stretch, but if you or your AC are in a high-pressure situation and haven't been fully acclimated to the Oconnor, there will likely be some fumbling involved. Once you know what you have to adjust to accomplish what you want to do, the CFF-1 is pretty awesome. Tons of adjustability and versatility, way more than any other FF I've seen or used.

I'm happy with my purchase...if you go the same route, just do your best to get your AC comfortable with it before you throw them in the boiler room...
 
For your manual zoom control have a look at the Chrosziel fluid zoom.
http://www.chrosziel.de/data/chrosziel/produkte/documents/Zoomantriebe_D.pdf

Sorry, i just found the german version but it should give you an idea.
You mount it on your rods and the gear will give you drag on your zoomstick so you can do smooth zooms.

Iris is normally set before shooting so you shloudn´t need to compensate during shooting. On rare occasions it comes up, but i think you´re fine adjusting the iris on the lens with your fingers directly.

For zoom control you may also consider electronic versions like Microforce or Cmotion, but that´s somewhat pricey.

good luck
Manuel
 
Tim Naylor said:
It has nothing to do with being a diva or a rugged "indie" guy. It's time. If the cumulative time lost on one piece of gear over another is 15 min or more per day, than that piece of gear costs me too much. I have my AC's help create the camera lists once they know the nature of the shoot and how much we're going to spend on camera. So "shoot or go home, gear is the gear" really doesn't work. I agree the tool is critical but being a standard piece that every rental house carries, no one ever expects them to own it.

That said the difference between the O'Connor and FF4 is not negligible. They are radically different approaches. The OC is more complicated but more adaptable where the Arri is far simpler but less adaptable.
Click to expand...

Ha haa :) No not rugged indie guy... poor indie guy. You should truly pity the choices I have to make.

And in low budget indie films its still common to throw extra time at a problem to save money. That comes in many forms.

Back to the O'Con versus the FF4... neither of which are cheap.

I know the FF4 is standard common and simple.

I know the O'Con is more complicated.

My argument is simply that if you can make any given shot with the FF4, you can also do so with the O'Con. Operationally the difference is negligible

I even agree with the ACs, using the O'Con would certainly have cost you 15 minutes the first day.

With a good 1AC and a positive attitude towards learning and new tech it would cost you 0 minutes the next day- and for the rest of the O'Con and AC's lives. After all 99% of the time it will work to exactly replace an FF4, so once you figure out how to best set it up to do that job... there is nothing else to learn to keep your day on track.

Look, the O'Con FF might genuinely suck balls. If they had tried the thing and it just failed them, I'd be OK with that... but that isn't what happened is it?

These 1ACs show up see new gear fiddle for a few minutes and pitch the "standard gear please" fit. I don't see you explaining how they gave the thing a fair shake. I don't see an eagerness to learn on their part.

I don't have shares in O'Connor, so I don't really care. Its the attitude that I am not happy with.

As a professional I'm happy to pay both cash AND time to learn a piece of gear that might help me. I think most of us are agreed that the O'Con CFF-1 fits that bill.

As an employer, I'm happy to pay for people that have the same attitude.

Including giving them 15 minutes over a 600 minute day to learn a piece of gear.

Let me put that differently... I should'nt have to "force" any member of my crew to learn job related things.
 
Good thread guys. Never knew FF's could be so emotional ... lol. I agree with what some are saying, just because Arri is the "standard" it's a big annoying that it's perceived as better. From testing both, it seems to me that the OConnor CFF-1 is clearly superior ... which is why so many on this board jumped over to it, including Mark from OffHollywood. (Though I have no idea if he uses it exclusively.)

I understand the argument those are making from a rental perspective, if the Arri rents better (AC's are a picky bunch, as some have noted) then they must oblige or lose that rental income. But for me, in owning my own gear ... and with rentals always being a distant second in priority, I simply want the best I can afford. OConnor fits that in spades. It's an amazing piece of gear :)

That said, I'm really looking forward to OConnor's upcoming FF unit that's a bit smaller and has gear rings specially designed for optimum performance with still lenses ... in other words, I think it works amazing with still lenses even when you don't add the focusing rings, which is impressive.

Given that with the Epic/Scarlet will often lead to focusing on running and running "light" and many will use still lenses on them, I think this new unit will be awesome. Also, I think it will be priced very well -- low enough to compete with the other popular HDSLR FF units like RedRock, Zacuto, Cinevate, etc.

Anyway, Alexander ... I'm with you ... unless that AC has his own FF that he's willing to bring, I'm going to have him come 15 minutes early to learn how to use a better overall performing, more versatile unit (OConnor) that will most likely be a greater asset on set.

Anthony
 
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