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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Any guesses on how much used Red Ones will sell for?

Going forward my strategy will be to continue to shoot on my R1 and rent an Epic when I need the overcranked shot, or the high dynamic range shot, etc. I don't think I'm amiss with this philosophy and I think there are a lot of others who are taking a similar PoV. (Call it the indi producer's point of view.)

That being said new R-1s are still priced at $25K, and if Red does decide to sell the returned R-1s Battle Tested, then they will set the used price ceiling. I'd guess around $15K for a BT MXed with the CF Module and warrenty. Private sales would be a few grand less.

It is still one of the few proven Digital Cinema cams on the market after all. I also am doubtful that the $12K price point will hold, my gut tells me it will creep up and by the time you buy everything you need for shooting cinema it will be around $5000 more than a similar R1(BT) package.

Bob
 
I also think you have to look at how a camera's value relates to how it's being used and deployed.

For example, if someone mainly rents their cameras out to productions and needs to stay on the cutting edge to compete, then the value of their Red Ones will fall once Epic is out there. However, if a company shoots their own stuff, say commercials then the camera may hold it's value for as long as they can still make quality productions using it. I think many would agree that the R1 MX in the hands of skilled DPs looks great.

I think the R1 MX can be relevant for years to come if people get the most out of it. Red has made this camera stay viable for quite a while with the constant updates and hardware upgrades. The market will eventually establish the selling price. If people can get this amazing tool for under $10K, by all means they should jump on it. They won't be disappointed.
 
Seriously, who is going to buy a used R1 for the same or more than an new Epic-S? True you would need a couple of modules if you wanted to emulate every feature, but for indies, who are the most likely to be buying, most aren't going to need HD-SDI and timecode, they will use HDMI to consumer monitors and 1/8" mic inputs from lav mics.

When the Epics hit the street in mass the value of R1s will go down significantly, it's just a fact, this shouldn't come as a shock.

To be clear, when I mentioned $7,000 - $8,500, I meant R1 body only, not a complete kit, and after the Epic comes out, not today.
 
jimhare said:
Seriously, who is going to buy a used R1 for the same or more than an new Epic-S? True you would need a couple of modules if you wanted to emulate every feature, but for indies, who are the most likely to be buying, most aren't going to need HD-SDI and timecode, they will use HDMI to consumer monitors and 1/8" mic inputs from lav mics.

When the Epics hit the street in mass the value of R1s will go down significantly, it's just a fact, this shouldn't come as a shock.

To be clear, when I mentioned $7,000 - $8,500, I meant R1 body only, not a complete kit, and after the Epic comes out, not today.
Click to expand...

Kind of what I was thinking, priced somewhere in between the price of an Epic-S brain and Scarlet 2/3. I wouldn't buy a Red One that was priced too close to an Epic-S either. Guess I'll have to wait and see.
 
are we dealers...

are we dealers...

My RED1 will become the backup in the truck, the B Camera, the Crash Camera,
why would I sell it at any price? plus I have all these goodies for it.....

I bought this to work, now I will have a backup!!! this will be a big deal when bidding on jobs. If the camera dies?????
 
Peter Dmitriyev said:
guys i would love for it to get down that cheap 7000 or so. but there is just no way i can imagine that happening. let's be honest even R1 with NON MX sensor is FAR more powerful/better than the current crop of best cams under 20k like sony ex3, new AF100 and probably even the upcoming F3.
how can the Red MX which is not even comparable to these cameras (way above them) suddenly depreciate by hundreds of percentage of its value OVER NIGHT? Can you imagine a Red MX over night suddenly costing as much as an Ex1 or AF100? I just can't fathom it. I think it's impossible. There will be some way that red will use to prop up the prices whether it is by crippling the Epic-S a little bit so that it's not incredibly superior to the MX Red, or something along those lines. I have just personally never in my life seen a professional product, car, house anything depreciate and lose more than twice its value literally over night, it's a bizarre concept and doesn't seem realistic
Click to expand...

Agreed. At some point, people will be saying - how much better is this than an AF 100 - as such, how much more is it worth? If an MX is $7000 than an AF100 would have to retail for $1000
 
Peter Dmitriyev said:
Cuneyt Kaya honestly this concept frightens me! Imagine in 2-5 years, Red MX quality cams are 2-3k$ and every prosumer and CONSUMER noob in the world is capable of producing stunning 5k+ footage equivalent to any big budget hollywood production. on one hand this will be one of the most epochal, grandiose, momentous moments in film / electronic /artistic history, on the other hand the thought is utterly deplorable and frightening! the indie market will crash!
Click to expand...

Well, no, it still takes lights, actors, and most importantly SKILL - most indy films are garbage because most people have no idea how to write a script, among other things.
 
jimhare said:
Seriously, who is going to buy a used R1 for the same or more than an new Epic-S? True you would need a couple of modules if you wanted to emulate every feature, but for indies, who are the most likely to be buying, most aren't going to need HD-SDI and timecode, they will use HDMI to consumer monitors and 1/8" mic inputs from lav mics.

When the Epics hit the street in mass the value of R1s will go down significantly, it's just a fact, this shouldn't come as a shock.

To be clear, when I mentioned $7,000 - $8,500, I meant R1 body only, not a complete kit, and after the Epic comes out, not today.
Click to expand...

Jim,

$25K (new) down to $8.5K is just too big a drop for what a R1 is and the supply / demand of the marketplace. How many R1s have been built? 4500? 5000? Less than the printed serials as a lot of orders were canceled when the economy tanked yet we all got the serials assigned to us (meaning there are gaps for canceled orders). What will Red do with the returned cams? Resell or destroy? Just how many used cams will come up on the market? I'm not selling mine, and if I could get an R1 body for $10,000 I'd jump on it in a heartbeat as a backup / B-Cam for my shoots. All of my accessories will work with it while some will not work on Epic S. I also think Epic-S will be more expensive when it hits the market. The cost of used R1s might actually justify pushing the price point of the Epic-S up. What will the U.S. Dollar be worth in the next few years? New products are much more sensitive to inflation than used ones and the knuckleheads running the show here in the U.S. do not seem to understand economics.

When a producer looks at budget issues there is a concept of 'good enough'. Artists and artisans want the top o' the line, but honestly there are enough people like me out there who think it would be a better play to be able to swap in an exact replacement part should the used part fail. If I own a Epic-S and a R1, and the more feature rich Epic-S fails while on a project, how can I send a R1 in as a substitute? And non balanced sound is not 'good enough', you cannot rely on lavs for a full movie. A module that does sound will be a requirement for an A-Cam while a B-Cam could go with a non-balanced mic for syncing purposes (but then you're out of the realm of the low budget indie).

You can see it gets complicated quick, so the best way to go about it is just step back and look at what the device does. There is no way a digital cinema camera will be on the market for $7,000 used, not when anything associated with film making is soooo expensive.

Bob
 
Martin Weiss said:
fortune-teller.jpg
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Hmm.. yes.. I see it now... RED One will sell... for...

...somewhat higher than...

...market value... yes...
:beer::devil:
 
I suspect a functioning EPIC package is likely to go for $22-25k. Jim could sell one for as little as $20k if he wanted to put a red pencil to some of his prices, but I don't think he will need to do it.

There is, inherently, no reason why a RED ONE should not depreciate to insanely low levels, just as you all fear. Electronics tends to do just that. And hobby filmmakers like me would love it to happen. But it won't.

Why?

Because there aren't many RED ONEs out there in the market. Have you noticed? Nobody sells their RED ONE on Craigslist. Nobody sells them on eBay. About one or two a month get sold here on REDUSER. That's an amazingly low number considering how many of them that are out there.

Consider the base of RED ONE owners:

- There are loyalists who will not sell their RED ONEs at any price; they are, as Jim once said, "part of the family." Forget buying a RED ONE from one of these guys. Most of them are soon to be EPIC-M Owners, but their RED ONEs stay.

- There are pragmatists who will trade their RED ONEs in for EPICs. Forget buying a RED ONE from these guys, too; Jim has them. I suspect Jim will be giving them away to film schools or at least announcing very special education pricing.

- There are people who are very pleased with their RED ONEs (especially with the sensor upgrades); they have plans for a long and continued usable life.

- There are RED's three dissatisfied customers. (Everyone has a few of them, even RED.) They have been shocked at how easily they sold their cameras. They are already long gone.

- There are people with filmmaking dreams whose dreams have flopped. These people really do need to sell their RED ONEs.

What this means in practice is a huge gap between buyers and sellers - that is, there are plenty of buyers who want to pay $15k for a workable RED ONE shooting package, but few sellers who want to get rid of theirs at that price. I'm sure there will always be people who want to sell their RED ONE packages for $25k plus, but most of those will go unsold thanks to EPIC pricing. My prediction is that most of those owners will shrug their shoulders and keep their RED ONEs.

So it's going to be tough to get a used RED ONE at any price. Most people hoping for a used RED ONE will either go for Scarlet 3/4 or stretch their budgets towards EPIC-S. This benefits Jim, and, I suspect, most of the prospective used buyers too.

D
 
My RED ONE is paid off.. first year it was paid off.. It has the same sensor my Epic X will have + i will probably buy an epic-s as well..

I will be keeping the red one as a B or C camera..as i suspect many people will do.

I really dont see the price getting to the low rates alot of people wish they would.. maybe in a few years.. but def not RIGHT when epic x and S hit the streets.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
My RED ONE is paid off.. first year it was paid off.. It has the same sensor my Epic X will have + i will probably buy an epic-s as well..

I will be keeping the red one as a B or C camera..as i suspect many people will do.

I really dont see the price getting to the low rates alot of people wish they would.. maybe in a few years.. but def not RIGHT when epic x and S hit the streets.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I will do, and I suspect many Stage 2 owners will be doing this. I think there will be very few Red ones for sale. Except RED sells all stage 3 as battle tested.
 
I think there will be a temporary price dip as many sellers save up to pay for their Epic-X, but then back up again - just like what happened with Stage 2. We have no plans to sell our camera. A B-cam is very, very useful at times.
 
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