Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Johnny Friday]

Yep, no disagreement here Rudi, I see the redmote for functions like changing iso, shutter and other functions that the bezel on the back of the current red one does now. But certainly i would not overestimate the simple fact of smooth, professional lens controls which are of course the core/base of this camera/housing in my opinion. having fingertip, smooth control over iris, focus and zoom is what is most attractive to me with the gates setup. Admittedly it has taken getting used to....using this camera (certainly a cinema camera) underwater and having to learn to rack focus and at times iris. It is a whole new jump from any digital camera i've ever used in the past AND not always the tool for the job as in a lot of run and gun situations. But that all said, i'm a firm believer in the foundation of the housing is the basic control of focus/iris/zoom in that order and having fingertip precise accuracy over those controls. Has saved me many times having those precision controls that are on my deep red and my Aqua Video that Element Technica added focus/iris controls.

The Redmote is great, and i know it will be designed into gates and aquavideo and others, but also this camera was certainly designed with a cinema style shoot in mind.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Yep, no disagreement here Rudi, I see the redmote for functions like changing iso, shutter and other functions that the bezel on the back of the current red one does now. But certainly i would not overestimate the simple fact of smooth, professional lens controls which are of course the core/base of this camera/housing in my opinion. having fingertip, smooth control over iris, focus and zoom is what is most attractive to me with the gates setup. Admittedly it has taken getting used to....using this camera (certainly a cinema camera) underwater and having to learn to rack focus and at times iris. It is a whole new jump from any digital camera i've ever used in the past AND not always the tool for the job as in a lot of run and gun situations. But that all said, i'm a firm believer in the foundation of the housing is the basic control of focus/iris/zoom in that order and having fingertip precise accuracy over those controls. Has saved me many times having those precision controls that are on my deep red and my Aqua Video that Element Technica added focus/iris controls.

The Redmote is great, and i know it will be designed into gates and aquavideo and others, but also this camera was certainly designed with a cinema style shoot in mind.

I think you should also note that the same kind of precise focus, iris control was readily available with the Canon lenses and the Birger mount. And controls in much better position than having to reach way forward to get to like on the DeepRed - which is the criticism I heard from someone that has used both setups. Since Epic will have Red supported Canon control right from the beginning - and Nikon at some point - this is very viable - and more compact than any gear system.

Further, precision control of cine lenses - IMHO - is better and more cost effectively done using Heden or similar lens motors. At about two thousand per motor they are about the same price as was charged for the ET gears and much, much less expensive than the price difference to the DeepRED. Motors provide the absolute maximum in flexibility - both in gear positioning AND in control position - AND can be used for regular surface shooting as well. I have a German customer (he is a machinist) that rigged them up in his AquaVideo housing over a weekend - and they are extremely precise.

Also, I did machine 80 of the low cost motors that Pawel Achtel designed, but the RedOne underwater market slowed down (and several went with the Birger control that I finished about the same time) so I never really pursued it. But I will revisit that with epic as well.

No disrespect, but I always thought the only real advantage of the DeepRed was the joystick control - no small achievement - but that is a non-issue with the upcoming Epic with Redmote. Everything else could be done as well or better with accessory products like the Birger or Heden - which have value outside of the underwater housing.

With $12K Epics and $7000 R1s the DeepRed is going to take a huge value hit - the AquaVideo not so much since it started so much lower - and low cost Reds will make it more feasible.

I may even sell some new Red1 housings since with the SSD module it can be shorter and less complex, so a new even smaller PVC R1 housing at about $5K (Aluminum at a little over $7K) and a $7000 Red1 (maybe even with a Birger mount since warranty/trade-in won't be an issue) starts to make sense versus an EX-3 and an EX-3 Gates (which I fully admit is the only practical housing for the EX-3). But I can't see it making sense to spend $20-25K on a housing for a Red1 - so either DeepReds will need to get down to $8K to $9K or it will make more sense to get a brand new Epic-S and housing.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Having a housing that will accept both Epic and Scarlet is going to open up the flood gates as well. I think many will opt for ownership of the housing, and go to the rental houses for either brain, depending on the needs and budgets of the shoot. Not in the initial stages when units are still rare for sure, but when production is ramped up and in full swing, that's what I'm expecting to see.

 

[Stephen Pizzo]

Gates Underwater Housing for Atom

Gates Underwater Housing for Atom

We are pleased to announce that ET has been supporting the efforts of Gates Underwater Products as they develop an underwater housing for Atom. Imagine the build quality and functionality of Deep RED but for the Atom.

From what we've seen it will be a work of art and give you access to all the features of the Atom.

Full specs, pricing and availability to come.
Stay tuned.

Stephen Pizzo
Element Technica

 

[Rudi Herbert]

These last few exchanges have been illuminating as far as where we, working professionals, feel the underwater imaging field should head. And since I seem to have my predictor hat on this morning, here are a few more things I feel will happen/need to happen:

Electronic Controls. Definitely. There is an inherent reliance to manual controls that never fail and are, furthermore, designed to work smoothly and predictably, as is the case with Gates housings. But the truth is, modern electronic controls, such as those for focus and exposure have become pretty much fail safe. Finding a way to use the capabilities of cameras like Epic/Scarlet that will allow electronic control of basically every parameter will be a big plus in making underwater filming easier and friendlier. As Mike said, being able to move these controls to wherever they make more sense in the housing as opposed to the front will be major, and we might not even need expensive motors to do so with electronic lenses like the Scarlet's fixed lens, which can be controlled completely from the Redmote.

Auto Focus and other automated functions. I, for example, never once use my EX-1 cameras in manual focus anymore. I have yet to record a single out of focus frame in over 1200 hours shot with my two underwater EX-1 systems. Let's not forget that a dome projects an image at a fixed distance in front of the camera, so a reliable autofocus system will have no problem tracking focus at all times, just like the Fujinon lenses do on the EX-1. The fixed Scarlet will be able to do this, and of course, the auto focus capabilities of Canon or Nikon still lenses are even more legendary. Further to this, iris tracking can be set to auto, where you can adjust how smoothly or harshly this tracking occurs, and believe me, the results are indistinguishable from a manual iris rack, with the advantage that the camera will detect the need to change iris long before you do. I know a reliance on manual control has been mandatory for high end projects in our industry for years, but as someone with a mind open enough to test those automated features, I can tell you they work EXTREMELY well 95% of the time, which ironically, is far better a percentage than manual accuracy, where focus can be a tad off or an iris can remain too close or too open for a few seconds here and there. Don't underestimate the power of automated features, they have come to the point where they can be tweaked to work as you want them to, and they are very powerful. Systems that offer control over these features will become very popular, and should be cheaper to boot since designing and building controls to reach every button and knob in a camera is a very daunting and expensive proposition.

Still Lenses will become the norm. Roll your eyes at me all you want, but I'd be willing to bet you that 3 years from now, a good 70% of all underwater RED systems will be fitted with Nikon, Canon or RED electronic lenses. It is inevitable. These lenses are smaller, cheaper, optically as good as most cine lenses and their electronic capabilities give them a tremendous advantage. Need to change iris? Press a button on the back of your housing. Need to zoom in or out? Press another button. Need to focus? Press your autofocus button until you achieve the desired focus, then press Auto focus lock and you're done. Want to do a smooth iris rack over a 20 second period as you move from under the corals to the surface? Program that on your camera with the touch of a few buttons and do it. Conceivably, the only gear you would ever need is a manual focus one for those instances when you still want to do so, but everything else a cine lens can do can be done by their still counterparts quicker, cheaper and just as accurately. And the decrease in size won't hurt either. We could be shooting Epic 5K imagery with housings that will rival the old DV housings in size. You still think still lenses suck? Take a look at Howard Hall's RED reel here, shot exclusively with Nikons: http://vimeo.com/15907252

Cheaper prices would go a long ways. Now, as I said, I PERFECTLY understand that it takes tremendous effort, talent, skill and resources to design and build housings, and any other accessory for that matter, that allow you to perform a very unique task, such as filming underwater, and to do it while having the peace of mind that this equipment will not fail no matter how rugged the conditions while still allowing the pristine image quality of cameras like RED to show through. This is what a housing like Gates gives you, and the fact that I've owned dozens of them proves I believe in this mantra. BUT, the prices that must be charged accordingly for such a product truly make it only a necessity for an elite of professionals. This not only leaves out a large number of amateurs (whether we think they have no business shooting professional cameras underwater is a moot point if they have the money and desire to buy a cheaper system and indulge their delusions) but also a very important segment of professionals whose specialty may not be underwater, but who would be very willing to buy a housing for their rental business or even to do easy over/under and swimming pool shoots themselves if the prices were not to significant. I have met COUNTLESS RED owners who have told me they would buy a housing for their REDs if they were cheap enough they could justify the investment and be able to rent it or shoot with it themselves here and there. Economies of scale really. If the Scarlet fixed sells for $6000 as it appears it will, then I'd be willing to bet RED will sell 20 to 30 thousand of those in the first year they are for sale. That's between 120 to 180 million dollars in sales, and another 30-50 million in accessories. If good housings for that camera are available for around the same price or, good heavens, even cheaper, then whoever manufactures those housings will sell them in the thousands, not tens or hundreds. I feel that the more underwater footage is out there the more work true professionals like us will get. At the end of the day, filming underwater is more about a set of skills than a camera system, and acquiring and having those skills is what sets us apart from the novices.

Multi camera systems would be hot commodity. As Tom said, having a housing that can fit both a Scarlet or an Epic would be tremendous. Lots of rental houses and operators would buy them, and owners who own one camera can rent the other when needed and use their same housing. Conceivably, the same could be said of an Epic/Scarlet retrofitting of the Deep Red or Aquavideo, where a retrofit as was done with RED and the MX sensor was a winning proposition both for RED and existing RED owners. A new housing system however, perhaps even modular in approach, where certain modules or attachments can be used depending on the camera and the camera trim, as well as the type of lenses, would be something truly unique. And, the way I see it, such a system would be perfectly buildable.

Well, I think I've rambled enough, time to get off the internet and face the world

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

We are pleased to announce that ET has been supporting the efforts of Gates Underwater Products as they develop an underwater housing for Atom. Imagine the build quality and functionality of Deep RED but for the Atom.

From what we've seen it will be a work of art and give you access to all the features of the Atom.

Full specs, pricing and availability to come.
Stay tuned.

Stephen Pizzo
Element Technica

It's our privilege to work with ET on this project. The required level of integration is significant, and ET is incredibly supportive. The underwater housing design is well underway, and the 'work of art' the results will be from a collaborative effort with the foremost 3D team at ET.

John Ellerbrock

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'll guess I'll have to be naysayer when it comes to auto-focus/auto-iris and electronic controls for the moment. And certainly this is an old debate. I've yet to use an electronic control for focus/iris that feels right and has the feel of my fingertips to it. How do you even describe that? well....again, it's an old debate. But, i'm ready for that system if it's out there. However, i have to say that i've just relied on manual gearing for focus/iris. I will say this, one touch auto-focus is nice as well as one touch auto iris/focus to find out what the camera likes and make adjustments from there. However, we're back to now tracking an animals feeding (say a whale shark) with salps/jellies in the water....what will auto-focus stay focused on? Also, radical movements up down and 360 degree circles....auto iris opening, closing etc.....I've seen enough of that on my last shoot where two shooters shot their cannon 5d's in Alaska with heavily silty water. You COULD NOT leave the camera on auto-focus or exposure. you had to choose your shots wisely. Now that said, i think the auto capabilities have their place. One place i can think of or one event is the same thing. Tracking a whale shark now in open, clean & clear blue water. Certainly every situation will demand different skills, but i think you will never get rid of manual focus/exposure and that is a skill set that you need when the time calls for it. And this also brings me way back to a story of an electronic housing in the field and a button broke off no longer allowing control of the iris or was it zoom and spare parts were not readily available where we were. I recall this person sat out the trip. I realize that will not happen as we ALL cary spare parts and motors with us yes? I've got a dozen or more stainless rods of all sizes in case i bend one. But a spare hayden motor may be another thing.....but i see that you will have to just build that $2k motor into the cost of doing business and travel with you where you go. But point is until we see this housing we don't know what we need or how it operates yes? I'm still on the manual fence side of things, but love some auto capabilities, but DON'T want auto to be my only mode of operation, but an addition.

 

[Stephen Strangways]

My crew has used both the Aquavideo housing with electronic control of the Birger mount, and the GATES housing with manual geared control of the lens. One thing they found: the Canon 100mm f/2.8L IS USM Macro lens doesn't play well with the Birger mount in terms of focusing electronically.
Whether using the Aquavideo control or the Impero on land, once you initialize focus, it takes over a dozen complete turns in the correct direction to get the lens to respond to the electronic focus control at all. It's a huge pain in the ass on land, and almost entirely useless underwater. With manual control of the lens, it's quite an easy lens to focus. So, for that one particular lens - which they really wanted to use - the manual geared lens control on the GATES housing was the way to go.

Now, I never saw the Aquavideo housing, so I'm not sure if it had a manual geared control for the zoom that they could have re-purposed for the focus, but it certainly gave me the feeling that I'd want to have both manual geared and electronic control in a housing, so you can use whatever works best with the particular lens you are using, or the particular situation you are in, or as a backup if one of the controls fails.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Whether using the Aquavideo control or the Impero on land, once you initialize focus, it takes over a dozen complete turns in the correct direction to get the lens to respond to the electronic focus control at all. It's a huge pain in the ass on land, and almost entirely useless underwater. With manual control of the lens, it's quite an easy lens to focus. So, for that one particular lens - which they really wanted to use - the manual geared lens control on the GATES housing was the way to go.

Well, first The 100mm L macro just came out last year so the Birger software may not have been updated for that lens, but there are literally dozens of macro capable lenses in Canon EF so wondering why that was the choice if it had problems - even the old 100 macro easily out-resolves the red1 sensor. Second, not sure what setup you were using since I never made an underwater version with the impero. The only u/w Birger controller used our own circuit board and worked more like a typical Sony lanc setup where you have switches that did incremental focus near/far and iris up/down.

The only impero setup that I was directly involved with was the Peppermill setup where we had 2 housings with with 220foot cables to the surface and the director did both focus and iris (plus start/stop) and the impero worked pretty darn reliably with several different lenses.

In reality there was no "standard" AquaVideo lens setup. Some had those ET gears, others used simple friction controls since they were using Arri 8R, 10-22 canon, 14 mm Nikon, etc. That didn't need much adjustment in normal open water work. Others used custom gears, motors, etc. I simply made the basic housing to be simple/reliable, and as compact as possible with flexible high quality port options including an excellent glass dome. Beyond that, we or the customer, customized the lens controls.

There will be more options with Epic - in part because I have developed more capabilities that we never were concerned with much in the past since video lenses always gave us electronic control options AND because we know we will have the Redmote to control camera functions - something that really should have been available for the Red1 as well.

 

[Stephen Strangways]

The 100mm L macro was purchased before we had any idea it would have problems, and by the time they were in the field with it, it was just too late to change.

The Aquavideo housing was the one with your own controller, and then the Impero was used on land. My point was that the same difficulties with the lens occurred with both your controller and the Impero, so the problem was certainly that particular lens with the Birger mount itself, and not the fault of your controller, which, like the Impero, worked well with every other Canon lens they used.
I wasn't trying to suggest there was any problem with your equipment, just that I'd be more confident with a mechanical backup solution to anything electronic that can misbehave; in this case the Birger mount and one particular lens.

I have spent an awful lot of time pulling focus on shoots using the Impero, and I have a real love/hate relationship with it. Sometimes the electronic control works beautifully, and I can pull off things that would be impossible with a manual geared follow focus.

Other times, the infernal thing drives me mad: constantly running out of power; being unable to sync over bluetooth in some locations; losing focus calibration and shifting all my dry erase marks off; throwing blinking and clicking temper tantrums when trying to change focus direction, limit knob or lens, or store preset focus marks; and getting itself turned beyond infinity or close focus, requiring many turns of the wheel in the correct direction to get the lens to start responding - which can happen with all lenses at times if you screw it up yourself, but is far worse with the 100 L, and always occurs right at the very start when you calibrate focus, through no error of the operator.

There are certainly times I'd love to just throw a manual follow-focus on and do things the old-fashioned reliable way. Sometimes it's harder that way, but it's usually far more reliable. I have a feeling RED's electronic and remote focusing options will be more predictable, but I'd still sleep easier at night knowing there were mechanical backups to everything, just in case.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Whatever the final implementation of the Gates/Aquavideo solution for Epic/Scarlet, I'm hoping for a housing compact enough to fit in the overhead bin of an airliner seat, with removable stoppers/shock dampers that will allow the camera itself to be transported inside the housing.

Nothing like arriving halfway round the world to find smashed bits and pieces scattered in various places. And that can happen no matter how careful you pack your gear, the TSA being what they are these days.

Taking the airline ramp rat factor out of the equation would be a huge plus.

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Yes, flying with underwater housings is a huge pain. GATES shipped our DEEP RED in a lovely big Storm case that exceeded the 70 lb airline baggage limit, so we had to split everything up into two smaller Pelicans. Oh, plus the third Pelican with the extra ports, the extender, and the pump... *sigh*

 

[Johnny Friday]

Yes, flying with underwater housings is a huge pain. GATES shipped our DEEP RED in a lovely big Storm case that exceeded the 70 lb airline baggage limit, so we had to split everything up into two smaller Pelicans. Oh, plus the third Pelican with the extra ports, the extender, and the pump... *sigh*

Having dealt with this on numerous occasions the past couple of years now....travelling with anywhere from as little as 4 cases to as many as 28. I've found that this is really a no win situation. I'll draw upon my experience lately to give an idea of what i mean. As I've heard mentioned from both Tom and Stephen.....wanting to fly with your housing and camera as carry-on. That may work say on your own for your own shoot. but what do you now do travelling with all of your KIT---lets see:
case 1: Housing
case 2: Camera and some accs.
case 3: lenses & lens accs in their own very well padded case
case 4: housing accs. Extensions; extra port; misc underwear to pad.....
case 5: purely support gear; extra screws; bolts; tool kit; spare dive bits and pieces
case 6: rebreather on it's own well padded
case 7: drysuit packed with 3 19cuft. steel tanks (that go with rebreather)
case 8: O2 booster, fill whips, packed together with misc. dive gear
case 9: 2nd RED with other misc. gear

Ok....i can go on here but point i was making is it's great to have a housing as small as possible and light weight as possible, but i think trying to beat out how one will minimize your risks with TSA handling or MISHANDLING our gear is a NO WIN situation. Just the this past year on my last two trips filming TSA lost a non-critical rebreather piece; scratched one of my Nikon lenses and added some nice fingerprints to the same lens; lost one of my masks; and repacked my rebreather in such a way that it could have become severely damaged.

What's the solution? I'm clearly of the opinion now that it's FREIGHT only now on any and all paying jobs. I've always liked traveling with my gear and always show up 4 hours early and ask for a hand inspection of all cases with TSA. Now not all airports will allow that. One in particular is Seattle and San Diego. A few months ago i had travelled through San Diego with 7 cases of gear and TSA in San Diego no longer offers hand checks of ANY gear PERIOD--you can have your camera, rebreather whatever sort of life support gear and they will NOT let you check it by hand or stand behind some line and advise TSA on the delicacies of your Life Support Gear. Needless to say,some of my gear was re-packed in such a way that i would not approve of and who knows how the equipment was handled by agents.

Freighting my gear on every trip is now how I handle this. In most cases you need to become a "known shipper" which takes several weeks or months, but in the end i don't think there is anyway around traveling with your Kit and taking a chance that your gear gets mishandled, broken or not packed as you originally packed it. Freighting of course brings up a whole new set of difficulties as well, but at least i don't have someone with a 12k lens in their hands removing the covers and placing it on a stainless counter near the edge.....and you'll never know if your things are dropped or just severally mishandled. It's a joke in most cases to watch how someone handles most this gear. I also place printed announcements of what is life support gear and professional film gear and of course handle with care etc... and breakable etc...is all over the announcements, but i've noticed that doesn't seem to help at all. Just gets placed to the side and.......

 

[Stephen Strangways]

In our case, we have enough people travelling to carry-on the two camera bodies, the lenses, all the hard drives (three backup set split between three different people) and the RED Bricks we are unable to check, and all the checked cases include the housing and related gear, and all the scuba gear.

In several cases, the excess baggage fees (due to weight or quantity or both) in foreign countries has exceeded the price of a ticket for a person, so the solution to a lot of problems seems to be having a bigger crew! More can be safely carried on, and more can be checked.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Whatever the final implementation of the Gates/Aquavideo solution for Epic/Scarlet, I'm hoping for a housing compact enough to fit in the overhead bin of an airliner seat, with removable stoppers/shock dampers that will allow the camera itself to be transported inside the housing.

Wish I had more time for this discussion, some points have been raised that I'd like to address but trying to get 20 housings finished to ship to china in time to clear customs before the Chinese new year.

Tom, I have traveled many times with our 8/9" housing (same diameter as the R1 and I'm thinking of an 8.625 size for epic) with cameras like the Sony z1, Fx7, HVX200, etc with camera inside, putting it in the overheads (I hate airbus cause they made the opening really tight). Usually I use a padded soft sided case and it fits fine. Epic in it's standard epic-x configuration, I.e. Body, I/o, battery module, and room for the 5" lcd behind should be about the same length. (I know some will also want external LCD but it only adds an inch or so to the length to allow internal mounting as well)

No real need for shock mounting as long as the camera mounts securely, the housing is a great protector. I sometimes stuff some foam in there just in case it came loose. I would probably have the smaller backup 6" acrylic dome Frontplate on there and put the $1900 8" glass dome either in a baggage case or a separate carry on - in case other passengers decide to jam things in there that might damage it.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Johnny, you definitely need your own aircraft.:cheers2:

I think Stephen, you certainly have the most convenient solution. Plus, with all the cargo/checked bag restrictions on Li batteries these days, and more coming down the pipeline as a result of the UPS accident in Dubai, dividing sensitive/restricted gear amongst as many crew as possible works best.

Speaking of the Middle East, in a certain country we've had laptops removed from some guys, they take it away to check for pornography, several weeks before it comes back (if they don't find any. If they do, watch out!). So far, I haven't heard of SSD's/Bricks being taken into custody, but you never know, better divide those up as well if you're headed that way.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Johnny, you definitely need your own aircraft.:cheers2:

I think Stephen, you certainly have the most convenient solution. Plus, with all the cargo/checked bag restrictions on Li batteries these days, and more coming down the pipeline as a result of the UPS accident in Dubai, dividing sensitive/restricted gear amongst as many crew as possible works best.

Speaking of the Middle East, in a certain country we've had laptops removed from some guys, they take it away to check for pornography, several weeks before it comes back (if they don't find any. If they do, watch out!). So far, I haven't heard of SSD's/Bricks being taken into custody, but you never know, better divide those up as well if you're headed that way.

"some guys" huh? Hmmmm...... :smilewinkgrin:

 

[jim kozmik]

Hello Steve.Jim kozmik here..I am your fellow Canadian up here in Peterborough...I did not no you guys have a underwater RED system,so do I we should talk.Kozmikunderwater@gmail.com

 

[Michael Hastings]

Jim posted epic dimensions last night.

Thought you might be interested in how that would fit in a housing. The Red outline shows the size I proposed in my earlier post. the dotted lines are the size of our existing RED1 housing. I also put a grey rectangular shape with the smallest size that would fit to show that at this small of a housing you don't save much volume by going rectangular (and you would need to go significantly larger on the rectangle if you want to be able to have cable connections on the side - which would fit easily into the cylinder style.)

Displacement - the amount it has to weight to be neutral - would be 2.16 pounds per inch on the tubular housing. So about 30 lbs. for a 14 inch long housing.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

...Displacement - the amount it has to weight to be neutral - would be 2.16 pounds per inch on the tubular housing. So about 30 lbs. for a 14 inch long housing...

wow, that's small, very small.