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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

A Response To Jim Jannard and 1080P

NAB had some 4K displays, some 4K projection, and I've also been looking closely at my own timelapse work (5.6K RAW) for a couple of years. I am a very obsessive pixel peeper. What I have noticed about 4K is that it looks like a moving photo, instead of "video." Bluray is nice, but if you really pixel peep it, it ultimately still looks like "video."
 
guys, I've done two projects for Comedy Central and they're deliverables are still digibeta!

I've shot a feature on a standard definition Panasonic DVX-100 and had it projected at the Arclight theater in Hollywood. (for those who don't know, the Arclight is one of the "go-to" theaters in Los Angeles) Standard Def, held up well on the big screen. As a d.p. I can't suggest it (I personally noticed the resolution as would many here on this forum), under any circumstance, unless it was 2006 again, but the point is, the audience didn't notice.

As for 1080p though, and again to reference the Arclight, I've seen HD Cam projected onto the big screen and it holds up, damn well! Better than some of the 35mm films, I've seen projected there. I've got a discerning eye, despite the seemingly far fetched statement.

While I would shoot RED for all the low budget projects I do, I currently own a 5D Mark II with "L" lenses and I know that the image it gives me is softer than even the GH1 or the newly released GH2. But, it's what I've got, and people continue to tell me the stuff I shoot is beautiful.

My point is this, though, 4K is great and it very well may be inevitable, but to say it's around the corner, is silly. If I'm giving standard def TAPES to Comedy Central to air, that should pretty much sum it all up!

4K.. amazing, 5K even better, either of them being the standard.... at least 10 years away.
 
Josh Negrin said:
guys, I've done two projects for Comedy Central and they're deliverables are still digibeta!

I've shot a feature on a standard definition Panasonic DVX-100 and had it projected at the Arclight theater in Hollywood. (for those who don't know, the Arclight is one of the "go-to" theaters in Los Angeles) Standard Def, held up well on the big screen. As a d.p. I can't suggest it (I personally noticed the resolution as would many here on this forum), under any circumstance, unless it was 2006 again, but the point is, the audience didn't notice.

As for 1080p though, and again to reference the Arclight, I've seen HD Cam projected onto the big screen and it holds up, damn well! Better than some of the 35mm films, I've seen projected there. I've got a discerning eye, despite the seemingly far fetched statement.

While I would shoot RED for all the low budget projects I do, I currently own a 5D Mark II with "L" lenses and I know that the image it gives me is softer than even the GH1 or the newly released GH2. But, it's what I've got, and people continue to tell me the stuff I shoot is beautiful.

My point is this, though, 4K is great and it very well may be inevitable, but to say it's around the corner, is silly. If I'm giving standard def TAPES to Comedy Central to air, that should pretty much sum it all up!

4K.. amazing, 5K even better, either of them being the standard.... at least 10 years away.
Click to expand...

Wanna bet? :-)

Jim
 
I have to say, if more people were exposed to 4K delivered via 4K projectors, the average Joe would quickly be trained to know what looks "ok" and what looks "awesome". Seeing 4K at the RED Day in Vegas was truly an "eye opener" as it was like looking through a giant window.

People want the best. 1080p is the best that the average consumer can have now...that's soon to change no question about it. The question is "Will we be ready to meet them with the best that we can do?" RED is the first to bring that opportunity...
 
I'd rather be paying $5 premiums to see 4K projection before 3D projection since seeing real 4K...

(Oh, and what I saw was on REDRay at 15mb/sec...as if this should be an afterthought?) hehe Kudos to the magicians working their butts off at RED.
 
I'm EP'ing a film thats already making waves in indie distribution land (via bit torrent), where even 4K distribution is becoming a reality today . And the studio's and TV networks are listening keenly, and carefully. Freedom of distribution will speed up adoption of new formats in a way we've never seen before. And in turn will fuel broadband growth. This time, the audience and the filmmaker have the power of driving demand well ahead of any standardized format.

If anyones interested, will post more about the film.
 
Ace said:
I'm EP'ing a film thats already making waves in indie distribution land (via bit torrent), where even 4K distribution is becoming a reality today . And the studio's and TV networks are listening keenly, and carefully. Freedom of distribution will speed up adoption of new formats in a way we've never seen before. And in turn will fuel broadband growth. This time, the audience and the filmmaker have the power of driving demand well ahead of any standardized format.

If anyones interested, will post more about the film.
Click to expand...

Would love to hear more about it Ace.
 
4k? Surely not 10 years away, more like 1 to 2 years tops! The World is more tech hungry than ever before. Looks at how 3D is taking hold. The people are screaming more, more, more.
Hey Jim, just a thought, you could put Golden tickets in chocolate bars and the winners can come and watch your really big 4K TV..... when it arrives. That would be cool!
 
I find this whole debate surprising. In the same way that '640K should be enough for anyone' turned out to be false, of course 4K is coming. But has 1080P been a mistake? Well just in the same way as having a first generation pentium was a mistake. It's been a product of it's time.

Even Hollywood, up until recently has only been mastering at 2K - even for big budget movies shot on 35mm film. So the problem has not been acquiring 4K images, it's been the limitations of the post pipeline. Virtually every blockbuster over the last 15 years have all been 2K digital masters until recently. Including all animated motion pictures prom Pixar to Dreamworks, and the biggest grossing movie of all time 'Avatar' shot and rendered in 2K. Only recently have some big blockbuster movies surpassed a 2K rendered output, mainly for showing at Imax.

What will happen when 4K becomes the norm? My guess is the majority of fx blockbusters will be upscaled - ironic as they were all shot on film. They won't be re-rendering all the CGI out again at 4K, or rescanning and re-comping, regrading the film, all at 4K. Indeed many of the assets/textures/detail modelling may only be good enough for 2K. So is 2K good enough? Well it has been the standard untill now. It's not a mistake, just like my current mac isnt a mistake because it isnt 128 cores. Before 2K digital projection, all films were seen on projectors where a 700 line print was about the standard. So even back then 2K was pie in the sky.

Going forward Red have taken the next step with 4K and now 5K - post is at the point where it's beginning to catch up - some movies are rendering fx at 4K. However there is a slurry of films which have been commited to 2K, and that is not because of the camera technology it's because of the chain of post production which could only cope with 2K at the time. For those films, 2K is as good as it will ever get.
 
1080p HD acquisition can't produce 2k wide screen cinema finish without cropping and up scaling with loss of resolution.
 
David Rasberry said:
1080p HD acquisition can't produce 2k wide screen cinema finish without cropping and up scaling with loss of resolution.
Click to expand...

The DCI specification for 2K projection of 1.85:1 material - the majority of theatrical releases - is actually 1998x1080 in a 2048x1080 container. The difference between 1998 and 1920 in the horizontal direction is only 39 pixels on each side, and the difference in the vertical direction is 0. Scaling usually isn't necessary, as the 39 pixel difference is actually in the screen matte in many theaters, and in any case, not objectionable to either the DCI or the viewer. The specification for 2K projection of 2.39:1 material ("anamorphic," but not in digital projection) is 2048x858, which can also be acceptably accommodated by using a crop.

Bottom line: 1920x1080 originals can be, and are, used for 2K projection without scaling in almost all cases.
 
Karl H said:
I find this whole debate surprising. In the same way that '640K should be enough for anyone' turned out to be false, of course 4K is coming. But has 1080P been a mistake? Well just in the same way as having a first generation pentium was a mistake. It's been a product of it's time.

Even Hollywood, up until recently has only been mastering at 2K - even for big budget movies shot on 35mm film. So the problem has not been acquiring 4K images, it's been the limitations of the post pipeline. Virtually every blockbuster over the last 15 years have all been 2K digital masters until recently. Including all animated motion pictures prom Pixar to Dreamworks, and the biggest grossing movie of all time 'Avatar' shot and rendered in 2K. Only recently have some big blockbuster movies surpassed a 2K rendered output, mainly for showing at Imax.

What will happen when 4K becomes the norm? My guess is the majority of fx blockbusters will be upscaled - ironic as they were all shot on film. They won't be re-rendering all the CGI out again at 4K, or rescanning and re-comping, regrading the film, all at 4K. Indeed many of the assets/textures/detail modelling may only be good enough for 2K. So is 2K good enough? Well it has been the standard untill now. It's not a mistake, just like my current mac isnt a mistake because it isnt 128 cores. Before 2K digital projection, all films were seen on projectors where a 700 line print was about the standard. So even back then 2K was pie in the sky.

Going forward Red have taken the next step with 4K and now 5K - post is at the point where it's beginning to catch up - some movies are rendering fx at 4K. However there is a slurry of films which have been commited to 2K, and that is not because of the camera technology it's because of the chain of post production which could only cope with 2K at the time. For those films, 2K is as good as it will ever get.
Click to expand...

This:

But the other issue with 4K in the home is as such: Most people just bought HDTV's within the last 3 or 4 years, and are not ready to upgrade yet, especially not at the price that current "new" tv's are being sold at. It's the reason why 3DTV's are not doing well, and that's that there's no real reason to get one yet.

The other problem is that there's no real way of distributing 4K to anywhere but large cinemas. Blu ray can only do 1080p, and DVD can do 1080p if you burn it as AVCHD.

Is 1080p a mistake? No. Is it a stepping stone to better things? most definitely.
 
Something that is rarely taken into account is the importance of choosing an acquisition, regardless of finishing options. When one's vision is wrapped in a nuance greater than any finish might provide for, maintaining one's vision throughout will provide for a far greater aesthetic than if one were to play by the numbers. In other words, restricting acquisition to match finish is a very different and inferior psychology than dumbing down a perfectly achieved and nuanced aesthetic- finish should not dictate to the art. And that does not mean one should always just blindly ignore finish - but one follows the other.
 
"1080 alliance" will rule in the next 5 years for sure.

Why?

Just go info from a friend in Asia that Apple started to prepare production of 1080p iPad 2.0 with upgraded HD 1080p display.

Also we were reading those rumors almost for months.

Others will follow immediately that means 2011 will roll many of wireless pads able to play and stream 1080p moving images content.

So demand for 1080p/i acquisition, production and distribution will rapidly grow in 2011 and next years to come...

HD DSLRs (digital single-lens reflex) and new MFT (Micro Four/Thirds), Sony NEX mirror-less cameras are ready,

also the hardcore digital acquisition group so called 1080p alliance Sony-Panavision-Arri+Etc., is really happy about it.

Also we know that recently a mass production of mobile devices simply rule world's electronic industry.

The production of iPhone and iPad is already a big trade issue between US and China...

But not a production of computers, TV-LCD, game gadgets, etc.., in that economic trade way...

Where is 4K?

Still with RED for sure and also with some of exotic electronic media fair's 4K exhibitors labeled as a still coming up next technology...

Btw, in Vienna we still have just one 4K theater and ORF (aka Austrian State Broadcast-Television-Radio-Internet) is still broadcasting in SD

and my 2 Panasonic HD plasmas must always upscale it (boring!!!).

Also to mention that Austria is one of wealthiest countries in Europe and also in the world that means money is not an issue with that...

One more thing:

Tomorrow everyone worldwide would like to see your content at one of 1080p pads starting with iPad 2.0 HD 1080p this Spring!!!
 
Bill Anderson said:
Something that is rarely taken into account is the importance of choosing an acquisition, regardless of finishing options. When one's vision is wrapped in a nuance greater than any finish might provide for, maintaining one's vision throughout will provide for a far greater aesthetic than if one were to play by the numbers. In other words, restricting acquisition to match finish is a very different and inferior psychology than dumbing down a perfectly achieved and nuanced aesthetic- finish should not dictate to the art. And that does not mean one should always just blindly ignore finish - but one follows the other.
Click to expand...

+1000.
 
Every single camera company of note is currently working on a 4K camera. When they release them, 1080P will "not be enough"... even according to them.

This is so easy to see... what is now isn't what will be. And film will hold up to what will be. 1080P will not. Not rocket science. What does 2K projection and current standards have to do with tomorrow? Absolutely nothing.

Jim
 
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