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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ALEXA vs RED thread in Creative Cow

Sanjin Jukic said:
Alexa can't even beat Canon's DSLRs in 1080p price/performance/mobility range.

I wouldn't even compare Alexa

It's too expensive, heavy and complicated to owe it as an end user.
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R1 and epic don't beat canon dslrs on those criteria either.

As far as enduser expense a Sony bvw400 was about $49k in 1992 and a 300a was about $39k (without lens) which is $74k and $60k in today's dollars and there were thousands of us independent owner endusers.

Ps and you couldn't even play it back without a $4k adapter or $10k player.
 
How did we go from discussing professional gear with instant deliverables to DSLR's in 2 posts, Sanjin your amazing at tangents!
 
Jay Gannon said:
You dont need a full res debayer to verify the footage is correct and safe.
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Yeah. A professional DIT working on a big budget, show, commercial, MOW or movie would most likely argue that you need to watch it in Realtime.

I agree with that logic. It might seem hyper paranoid, but I would want the dedicated tool to handle the debayer and RT screening of rushes.

I can not speak for Adobe and the Mercury engine.

Daivd
 
tomapete said:
i never post here, im not a filmmaker in any way, but i like what Red's doing and it's very exciting to watch their progress. Please don't kick me if i daresay that for Jim at least in the beginning the only goal was to build himself a 'take-no-prisoner' digital cinema camera and hell with the workflow. To me it sounded almost like a non-profit/personal hobby enterprise. Well now marketing forces, sales figures, production requirements starting to take over Red. Lotsa people want Reds but they don't wanna deal with 'hell with the workflow' workflow and that poses a dilemma for Red, at least in their original attitude.
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when comparing other raw formats, reds raw format is implemented in 90% of the postsolutions today.
 
Workflow has always been a top priority. That's why we have put so much effort into it since the beginning. REDCINE-X increases in capability every day. Storm is on the way. Our SDK is being used by almost every post manufacturer.

Top dogs walk into Stage 4 thinking the RED workflow is difficult. Then they see "Shoot, open in REDCINE-X and project in 4K (or any other format) with a grade playing realtime". Dailies are now called "Minute-lys". Michael Cioni then shows how easy it is to go from RAW to finish grade on a Pablo. Most walk out saying "this is the easiest workflow I have ever seen. How come I had such bad info?"

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Workflow has always been a top priority. That's why we have put so much effort into it since the beginning. REDCINE-X increases in capability every day. Storm is on the way. Our SDK is being used by almost every post manufacturer.

Top dogs walk into Stage 4 thinking the RED workflow is difficult. Then they see "Shoot, open in REDCINE-X and project in 4K (or any other format) with a grade playing realtime". Dailies are now called "Minute-lys". Michael Cioni then shows how easy it is to go from RAW to finish grade on a Pablo. Most walk out saying "this is the easiest workflow I have ever seen. How come I had such bad info?"

Jim
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Hey wait a minute! Aren't you supposed to still be on that mini-vacation of yours? :hand:
 
You can pretty much ignore any argument that is built on the premise that the performance of the Alexa is similar to a DSLR recording h.264 video -- I mean, even Apple ProRes 422 is between 147 to 220 Mbit/sec, and isn't ProRes4444 around 360 Mbit/sec? That's similar in performance to a camera recording 8-bit 4:2:0 in the under 50 Mbit/sec range???
 
Jannard said:
.......Most walk out saying "this is the easiest workflow I have ever seen. How come I had such bad info?"

Jim
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That's the dilemma Jim. You can only walk them down the road so far. At some point, there has to be some accountability for folks who don't do their homework. This is not a RED specific issue either. Keeping up with technology or consulting with people whose job it is to keep up with technology helps avoid mistakes.

In the case of RED, RAW comes with flexibility. Flexibility means options. Options means there are many potential workflows. Some are very easy, some are more complex, yet powerful. If a producer is looking for a magic button that just makes it all happen with no effort at all, well you guys have come a long way since the early days, but that one magic button doesn't exist yet. On second thought, it kind of does. Build a relatively inexpensive PC with Adobe Premiere Pro, drag R3D into timeline, hit play. Of course, that's simplifying things too far, there are some caveats even with that workflow, but the point is that in 2010 there are solutions in place.

There will always be room for improvement, but shows are getting made, movies are hitting the multiplex, and commercials with quick turnarounds are shooting RED. What do they all have in common? People did their homework and figured out workflows. And you guys have done a great job of recognizing the need to prioritize workflow. Hence, additional SDK support, Redcine-X, Red Rocket, Storm, and eventually RED RAY Pro and other solutions.

Accurate info is key. What producers and crews do with it is up to them.
 
There is a basic problem that even I run into all the time, which is that traditionally video has been shot, recorded, and delivered in broadcast gamma.

So shooting "properly" for future-proofing and maximum flexibility in color-correction, not to mention, to get closer to a film look, requires shooting in a wide-gamma / high-DR format like Log or RAW, and therefore sets up the issue of needing a second step to get a Rec.709 version for whatever purposes.

So producers who are used to shooting on a broadcast video camera and getting a Rec.709 tape immediately just find all the issues surrounding RAW and Log cameras a bit annoying, despite all the good reasons to shoot RAW and Log. You can simplify and dumb it down for them all you want, but there is still a second step unless you shoot simultaneous versions.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
You can simplify and dumb it down for them all you want, but there is still a second step unless you shoot simultaneous versions.
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With both EPIC and Scarlet, you can record RAW to CF or SSD AND record 720P, 1080P or 2K RGB (your choice of flavors) out the HD-SDI. There are options to do that now from 3rd parties and we will have our own soon. That gives you the best of both worlds if you need it instantly.

If not, put a quick grade on the RAW, use a RED Rocket, and transcode realtime to whatever you need. Then you still have the best of both worlds.

Other options... open R3D native in any of many 3rd party post workflows.

Jim
 
I think this is the BEST opportunity for RED to boast about its decision to go modular with the EPIC/SCARLET design. In my opinion, the same phenomenon that catapulted the iPhone onto the top of the heap, bypassing ALL OTHER MANUFACTURERS in unit sales and revenue will be the "app" phenomenon.

The fact that almost ANY capability is possible with the iPhone with a "simple" app download is a phenomenal concept that users have embraced, and can no longer live with-out.

I think the same will be true in RED land. As soon as producers, director and operators get a "taste" of the RED MODULE universe and see that almost EVERYTHING will be possible with a simple add-on, the Film, TV and Documentary markets will demand it, and accept nothing less of their cameras.

That is why I think this PRoRes workflow discussion is moot (or it will be soon enough).

You want to record ProRes and REDCODE at the same time? theres' a MODULE for that!

You want to record X, Y, Z and deliver in A,B,C format? theres' a module for that!

You want to record the Heart Palpitations and Vital Signs of the DOP while discussing a re-shoot of that important scene with the executive producer who just happened to stop by the set and started giving orders left and right yelling "I sign the checks around here...? that module will be available the 1st day of the second quarter next year! :laugh:

JEA
 
Jannard said:
With both EPIC and Scarlet, you can record RAW to CF or SSD AND record 720P, 1080P or 2K RGB (your choice of flavors) out the HD-SDI. There are options to do that now from 3rd parties and we will have our own soon. That gives you the best of both worlds if you need it instantly.

If not, put a quick grade on the RAW, use a RED Rocket, and transcode realtime to whatever you need. Then you still have the best of both worlds.

Other options... open R3D native in any of many 3rd party post workflows.

Jim
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Thanks Jim!!!

Sounds great!!!

In this case you were covered them all !!!

It's somehow essential for the business you would like to do with Epic and Scarlet!!!
 
It seems to me that (not in all cases) the problem is the simplicity of the workflow. Most houses have A TON invested in big time tools. I have heard the biggest horror stories from the biggest players.

Me...I just transcoded, edited, and graded another 4K short...ON MY LAPTOP...nobody wants to hear this, that this is possible and at a very high level, pixel for pixel I'll put it up there.

RED has made life easy. The workflow has always been the SMARTEST DIGITAL REPLACEMENT TO FILM and CINEMA workflow available. The most flexible and the one that thinks long term.

The problem is not the little guys. It's the big guys who try really hard to put everything into their existing workflow and hardware, instead of exploring the ease of RED's workflow.

From DAY ONE I HAVE NOT HAD any workflow issues.

The misinformation about RED workflows is due to people protecting LARGE investment in gear that was VERY EXPENSIVE.

David
 
I have 2 NanoFlash units I can use to record my clean outs on my Reds if it is a low budget or corporate kinda show. They will record Quicktimes for FCP and MXF for Avids with audio and code imbedded! They are good stuff.

Of course I prefer 4k and use it most of the time.

Prost,
Rich
 
Jose Alvarez said:
You want to record ProRes and REDCODE at the same time? theres' a MODULE for that!
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Yup, it's called Ki Pro. I'm not sure why this ProRes argument keeps coming up, it's been out for about 18 months now (and I'm sure RED will have their own ProRes module when the time comes).

Your point about modularity is right on. I'll be curious to see if Jim opens up the hardware to 3rd parties... ?
 
This is something I've wanted for a while, to be able to record simultaneously in RAW and also in 1080P color with broadcast gamma with some basic color looks applied, for editorial / dailies, save the RAW for the final mastering & color-correction.
 
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