What's your guess for Epic-L?

[Jesper Sichlau]

And already, it seems it will outspec the Red One in many ways -- but then they risk pissing new customers off who purchased a Red One MX, only to have this camera released for a LOT less money.

But these new customers kinda knew what they were going in to. A year ago the Scarlet S35 specs were better and cheaper then the Red One, so if you bought one, you probably bought it to get a camera immediately.

 

[Kip Kubin]

I would think all cameras will include HDR.

But maybe only Epic-X will have ANA modes as one way to give it a few more features compared to Epic-S.

I'm inclined to agree but I don't think enough people have ana glass to separate the levels of the Epic line... there has to be more reasons and features that separate the lines.

There has to be a clear reason to make one that's economical enough to put in the hands of small production houses but leaved room for one that has features and a price that requires a rental.

As HDR a feature that's not a necessity to most productions ...like all the FPS's you'd get on a upper model of the Epic.

 

[Steve Das]

...Now, they have a camera in the Epic-S/Lite that they don't want to make too close to the Epic in features, otherwise it will hurt the Epic....

No matter what we do... there will be unhappy people. As long as everyone understands that we really are trying to push the industry along and deliver meaningful cameras with the most capability at the best price possible, I can live with some disappointment out there.Jim

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=683231#post683231

Well..you have to understand the price difference in the 2 Epics is
the result of higher data and frame speeds in the EpicX.

Not sure how selling one camera can hurt the other?
What if the profit is the same on either camera...So whether
Red sells a 50/50 or 90/10 division of standard Epic to EpicX
wouldn't make much difference to them. But only they know for sure.

In fact by moving Scarlet S35 to Epic line..they most likely have
bumped the features and made it closer to EpicX. They like to
add features...not disable them.

They didn't save HDRx for EpicX...they put it in all the cameras.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Well..you have to understand the price difference in the 2 Epics is
the result of higher data and frame speeds in the EpicX.

Not sure how selling one camera can hurt the other?
What if the profit is the same on either camera...So whether
Red sells a 50/50 or 90/10 division of standard Epic to EpicX
wouldn't make much difference to them. But only they know for sure.

In fact by moving Scarlet S35 to Epic line..they most likely have
bumped the features and made it closer to EpicX. They like to
add features...not disable them.

I agree Steve ... the word "hurt" is not accurate. What I meant to say is if the Epic Lite/S/L has 90-95% of the features but costs 1/3 the price, it will definitely make people think twice about the Epic-X.

Like you said, it may just be for people who absolutely need the higher framerates, data rates, etc. Only the pros whose projects demand those features.

Again, it's not going to "hurt" the Epic ... but it affects perception. How would people feel about the Alexa if Arri made a camera that was 95% identical but -- but charged $25,000 instead of $80,000.

Granted, I'm aware of the fact that the price of a product can skyrocket to have that last little big of performance -- i.e. the difference between a BMW M3 and a Ferarri ... or between a Red Pro Prime and a Master Prime lens. But here we're talking about the same brand.

Just saying that I think Red will be cautious not to undercut the Epic-X by giving away so much of its magic for a small fraction of the price. Thus my "guess" for the brain would be a minimum of 50% what the Epic-X costs, i.e. $14,000. Still quite a steal at that price, and perhaps Red will offer an attractive bundle/shooting package to help make up for the price hike.

 

[Leo Sardello]

This is probably the best thread for my epic little rant here…

I think that people with the budget to do so are always going to go with the EPIC-X. The industry has historically been largely based on a rental model and not an ownership one anyway. When a production needs a camera, they gather their funds and rent their equipment. Yes that model is changing to some degree as things continue to get better and cheaper. And yes there are plenty of people who own their equipment and make their living with it.

My point is, the person looking to OWN an EPIC-S is rarely going to be the same as the one looking to OWN an EPIC-X (excluding of course, rental houses). If you freelance with your own equipment I think you are much more likely to go with an EPIC-S, renting the X when required by a client. But if you’re renting one or the other I think you’re more likely to rent the X. I really just don’t see this competition between the two that so many here seem to see.

I mean, if I were a rental house I’d be much more frightened about the low barrier of entry that the EPIC-X presents rather than competition between S and X models. If I’m production company and I have a number of productions of varying types lined up that equal a total of x number of shoot days; and the cost to rent an EPIC-X for that (heh) x number of shoot days equals or surpasses the cost of owning an EPIC. I’d probably just buy the EPIC-X outright. That’s not so true for the S depending on the nature of those productions (if you’re going to rent why not an X model?), but it could happen in some cases.

But I’m not a freelance DP, videographer, or rental house so I might be totally full of it- as I often am. </rant>

Anyway I think the Brain on the EPIC-S will stay below $10,000, though I wouldn’t be shocked if it went over. And I guarantee it will have HDRx (every camera from RED in this generation WILL have it and they’ve said as much) and I highly doubt it will not shoot 5k as this camera has always been slated to, but at lower data and frame rates than the X model.

 

[Jim Retar]

I think there are a couple of things that need to be taken into account about pricing:

The HDRx™ upgrade for the 5K-s35 chip set will cost more than the 3K-2/3" chip set. I don't think we can just base it on the idea... well, the 2/3" had a 20%-$1000 increase, so we can assume the same for Epic-S.

The Epic-S will be made in the USA.... this could have quite a significant effect on pricing.

 

[Leo Sardello]

I don't think we can just base it on the idea... well, the 2/3" had a 20%-$1000 increase, so we can assume the same for Epic-S.

Well, I agree to a degree. When Jim made his ESTIMATE that it would cost $1000 to add HDRx to Scarlet, he was very clear that he was talking about the 2/3 models and that they were still looking into the S35. But doubling in cost? That’s a 100% increase. Well, I guess it’s not impossible that’s all I’ll say. In a thread like this someone’s going to end up eating their words, I might as well toss my hat in the ring. 50% would peg it half a G over $10,000, which I still think it will come in under.

*Oh, and the first person to say they doubled the price of Scarlet from $3k should be banned IMO (not including this preemptive statement).*

The Epic-S will be made in the USA.... this could have quite a significant effect on pricing.

I take it you are assuming that now that the S35 is in the EPIC family it will be manufactured in the U.S.? I think that’s probably a fair assumption.

 

[Mathias Erichsen]

There is alot of people making a good living of the Red One rental and hope to do so with the Epic-X too. I think that the higher the price will be on th Epic-S, the harder the Red rental business will become.
Reason: There is many future Epic-S buyers that have no interest in renting out the camera and are perfectly happy using it for their own projects. If they pay way more than they really can afford, they will be "forced" into the rental business to justify the purchase.
Every other cinematographer/producer will know somone with an Epic-S that will let it go for $50-100 a day.
So, to save the rental bussines I guess the Epic-S brain better be no more than $8-10.000 (as long as this is the most affordabel s35 option)

I´m sure Red will do whatever they can to make all their cameras as good and affordable as they possibly can :thumbup1:

 

[Jim Retar]

In a thread like this someone’s going to end up eating their words

If it lands under $10k, i'll enjoy eating my words! :beer:

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Reason: There is many future Epic-S buyers that have no interest in renting out the camera and are perfectly happy using it for their own projects. If they pay way more than they really can afford, they will be "forced" into the rental business to justify the purchase.
Every other cinematographer/producer will know somone with an Epic-S that will let it go for $50-100 a day.
So, to save the rental bussines I guess the Epic-S brain better be no more than $8-10.000 (as long as this is the most affordabel s35 option)

I´m sure Red will do whatever they can to make all their cameras as good and affordable as they possibly can :thumbup1:

I think Red could earn more money if more people could afford their own camera, instead of letting the rentalhouses earn the money. Who's to say renting camera-houses (not optics) really is the future?

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

When Jim made his ESTIMATE that it would cost $1000 to add HDRx to Scarlet, he was very clear that he was talking about the 2/3 models and that they were still looking into the S35.

Actually, he wasn't clear at all, and a number of people asked if he was referring to both models (some even thought he was referring specifically to the S35).

I take it you are assuming that now that the S35 is in the EPIC family it will be manufactured in the U.S.? I think that’s probably a fair assumption

Jim Jannard has pretty much confirmed it'll be manufactured in the U.S. because it was recently moved from the Scarlet platform to the Epic. Otherwise, had it been simply a rebadge, I don't think it would've been necessary to move production stateside.

 

[Steve Das]

...The industry has historically been largely based on a rental model and not an ownership one anyway...

Rentals are the current system..but historically there have been others.
Actually I've been told that in the Silent movie days..the Dps owned
their own cameras which they had customized themselves. And up untill
the 1960's Studios owned their own camera departments..so
certain studios would shoot in certain formats. The format was not
so much a choice of the directors/Dps...you shot in the format that
the studio offered.

The rise of television in the 1950's led to declining ticket sales and
most studios liquidated alot of their equipment and props. Private
companies bought these and this led to the current system
of Prop houses and camera rentals.

A rule of thumb I've been told by Producers and Line Producers is
that if the cost of rental is 50% or less of the cost to buy a said
item they rent. Because they figure they can only count on selling
something used for 50% of the purchase price.
But if something costs them 75% of the purchase price just to rent
it. Then they consider buying it because they figure they can use it
and then sell it for 50% of the purchase price.

Red pricing is not based on "helping" a rental market in any way..
..if it was it would likely be a highly illegal form of economic collusion.
The costs of cameras are based on development costs(engineers working
years fulltime )..labor(U.S.?)..and material costs. All of which
we know have risen in the past year. Jannard has posted here that
they are tryng to make cameras w/ the most features at the best
price many times. There is no conspiracy to keep Indies from shooting S35
or to save the EpicX Camera rental market. None.

Most likely rental companies will adapt to fit new realities as they arise
and the rental market will continue on. If some don't adapt..they
won't exist..simple. If you want proof of this just
go to some of their websites and you can see them selling their film
cameras for much less than 1/2 the price 10 years ago. Proof of progress
and markets in action.

 

[Kip Kubin]

I agree that the market usually rents (for Features) and I'm sure the intent was to have the RPIC be a rental house mostly market but I think you have to shift your way of thinking about the Epic line as it has changed into a line of several cameras that must meet the needs of camera buyers...meaning cams rental houses buy to rent and cams production comanies/Ops/DIT's buy to use.

EPIC X - Features and specialty shots - high frame rates / HDR. Features

EPIC S - Small production houses producing music videos, local and regional TV commercials and the indi features.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Anything is possible, and I too would enjoy eating my words if the camera comes in at $10,000 ... but it was already at least $8,000 for the brain after the HDRx price bumb -- and then Jim has already confirmed there would be another price increase now that's it's part of the Epic line.

So I'd be pretty confident to take a "over $10,000" bet with anyone ... :thumbsup:

Again, even if it comes in $10,000-$12,000 range and the only difference is that it's missing some higher framerates and data rates -- that will be UNBELIEVABLE.

Yes, it won't convert that many DSLR people who get their bodies in the $2000-$5000 range ... but that's what the Scarlet 8x is for ;-)

 

[Lee Saxon]

Again, even if it comes in $10,000-$12,000 range and the only difference is that it's missing some higher framerates and data rates -- that will be UNBELIEVABLE.

Objectively speaking, it would still smoke what competitors are offering in that price range.

But I still can't wrap my head around being happy and thankful for a price increase announcement...

Yes, it won't convert that many DSLR people who get their bodies in the $2000-$5000 range ... but that's what the Scarlet 8x is for ;-)

I disagree. I wanted my Scarlet to be my motion camera AND replace my DSLR. Say what you want about shallow DoF being a trendy gimmick nobody really blah blah blah for motion work, it's an indespensible part of the toolkit for still photography. Scarlet 2/3" is a motion camera only in my opinion.

On the other hand, I'd get 300mm or higher (equivalent) out of a vastly lighter lens than the 300 2.8 i lug around now...hmmm...that'd make football games a lot less work....DAMN IT YOU GUYS STOP SUCKING ME BACK IN

 

[Leo Sardello]

Actually, he wasn't clear at all, and a number of people asked if he was referring to both models (some even thought he was referring specifically to the S35).

Sorry… If there’s one thing I’ve learned on this board it’s that people interpret the same information quite differently. It was poor phrasing on my part. I should have said that is was “my perception that Jim was very clear”.

Jim Jannard has pretty much confirmed it'll be manufactured in the U.S. because it was recently moved from the Scarlet platform to the Epic. Otherwise, had it been simply a rebadge, I don't think it would've been necessary to move production stateside.

My bad. I remember that one now. Hard to keep track of every post on here.

 

[Leo Sardello]

Red pricing is not based on "helping" a rental market in any way..
..if it was it would likely be a highly illegal form of economic collusion.
The costs of cameras are based on development costs(engineers working
years fulltime )..labor(U.S.?)..and material costs. All of which
we know have risen in the past year. Jannard has posted here that
they are tryng to make cameras w/ the most features at the best
price many times. There is no conspiracy to keep Indies from shooting S35
or to save the EpicX Camera rental market. None.

I definitely agree here. I don’t think RED sets its prices on anything other than cost to build + margin of profit they feel is right.

 

[Leo Sardello]

If it lands under $10k, i'll enjoy eating my words! :beer:

Heh heh. Yeah, frankly I hope it’s you and not me :ihih:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...and then Jim has already confirmed there would be another price increase now that's it's part of the Epic line.


...

I have read this take on things so many times that it has taken on an air of fact. But, I have to admit, I have followed the discussion about the Scarlet S35 to EPIC-S transition pretty closely and I don't actually recall their being any sort of "confirmation" from RED that this new name carried with it a requisite price increase. I could certainly have missed it, so would someone be kind enough to cite the post where an EPIC-S price hike was stated? I'd just like to know whether it is fact or perception. Thanks.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Yeah, okay, technically, "the features have changed as has the price" isn't a confirmation that either is increasing, but given that it's being moved higher in the line-up I don't think it's crazy out-of-nowhere wild speculation to expect a higher price.