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Buy glass and rent a brain? Or buy a brain and rent glass?

L

Luis Castaneda

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I've been on planning on buying an S35 brain and a set of Red Primes. But with the new price increases looming I'm not sure if I'll be able to afford both.

Which scenario do you think would be a wiser investment? Buying a set of Red Primes and say a PL modded 7D, then renting an S35 as needed. Or buying a Red S35 brain with stills glass and then renting PL glass as the project at hand calls for?

Any advice?

PS. Of course I mean a functional package when I mention the S35 brain. Thanks.
 
Investment in excellent glass is always a good idea. Technology of the brains will always improve, but great glass can last you a lifetime
 
without the brain no one will want your glass..if you have a brain and offer a deal with glass then your are making money on both and building clients. making fair money from lots of clients is, to me, better than making great money on just a few clients...volume beats high margin always..think mcdonalds...however unlike mcdonalds it all comes down to your quality as either a dp or dit..so if you are adding value which goes beyond the commodity of your gear then you will work and always make money on your gear...the gear doesnt work, you do!
 
You can use "cheap" glass and still get lovely images for a relatively cheap daycost with the brain, you'll get experience, clients and skills.

With the glass only, you won't have the same playroom for experementing and learning.

My 2c
(+ agree with Dino)
 
Gary Paul Walker said:
Investment in excellent glass is always a good idea. Technology of the brains will always improve, but great glass can last you a lifetime
Click to expand...

I've heard this to be the case. I was even thinking about a PL modded 5D to get by, purchasing a set of Zeiss Compact Primes, and then renting a FF35 Scarlet/Epic-Lite when the time comes. Then again, I still don't know how much the price increase will be, so my first option could still be a possibility.
 
I think there are lots of different approaches, and you'll probably find varied opinions on RedUser... For me, glass has always been the thing I've started with, simply because I've worked with a fair amount of different cameras. I've always seen it as a long term investment that you can use reliably - get to know the individual characteristics of the lenses you own and thats one less headache you have on set.

Thats not to say that I dont agree with Gunleik - I do have some cheap lenses that have provided great results (however I've found trying to pull focus with some of these cheaper alternatives near-impossible).

DSLRs are great training wheels simply because they aren't cost prohibative, but you might want to think about getting some cheaper glass if you're at that learning stage (well, we're all at the learning stage.. unless you're David Mullen who is a wealth of knowledge and wisdom and helped me out with a simple bit of advice more than once!)
Also you've mentioned that the price increase of the (formerly-named) S35 has may not get both brain and glass, I would suggest that Zeiss Compact Primes might be a bit out your budget if a small raise in the S35 would make you think twice about pulling the trigger on both brain and glass

Again, my opinion Gunleik and dinos points about glass and renting possibilities for the future are still very valid
 
Luis Castaneda said:
I've heard this to be the case. I was even thinking about a PL modded 5D to get by, purchasing a set of Zeiss Compact Primes, and then renting a FF35 Scarlet/Epic-Lite when the time comes. Then again, I still don't know how much the price increase will be, so my first option could still be a possibility.
Click to expand...

Dont drink the coolaid. A PL mount 5D is not going to give you one bit more resolution than a regular 5D. you are just going to spend a heck of a lot of cash for only the small tiny benefit of Rack focusing. The look of your image will not be any cooler. Lets do the math.

An Epic lite-S35 (I assume) will be the price of an old Red-M
so about $ 17.500k kitted no glass.

A 5D with a well calibrated PL mount is around 11k

I dont need to tell you the resolution, audio, feature set differences and cash earning value between the two.

So for about 7k more you'll have a camera that can shoot the next James Bond flick.

Think about it :party:
 
Yes glass is important, but not terribly so. If you understand photo lumens, you'll be able to judge the weakness of a particular lens and work it. I'LL TAKE 5K RESOLUTION OVER GLASS ANY DAY.

Also the argument for glass is quickly dying out as the are so many companies entering the game. Besides pay closer attention to the auto focusing capabilities of the Epic using still lenses. It opens worlds of creative possibilities in my opinion.
 
dino g said:
without the brain no one will want your glass..if you have a brain and offer a deal with glass then your are making money on both and building clients. making fair money from lots of clients is, to me, better than making great money on just a few clients...volume beats high margin always..think mcdonalds...however unlike mcdonalds it all comes down to your quality as either a dp or dit..so if you are adding value which goes beyond the commodity of your gear then you will work and always make money on your gear...the gear doesnt work, you do!
Click to expand...

VERY wise words from Dino.
 
Very wise words from Dino and the right ethic. But it would help to understand who you are and what you do. If it is you that you are marketing then it matters less. But there are pro's and con's to both. Either way one will have to be rented. I think if you can only have one I would definitely buy a working kit and some still lenses. Eventhough I do love the RED lenses, I am more likely to switch to different glass than camera. There is likely nothing in the forseeable future that will equal Epic in quality but there is glass out there that equals RED's sets. Plus the benefit to owing a brain, like Gunleik mentioned, is the ability to improve your craft and taking on the odd personal project. Where still lenses would do the job.
 
I would definatly go with purchasing the brain and using still glass. The ability to make money is just much easier when you have the camera brain as opposed to just glass. I won't go into the reasons because I think Dino explained them pretty well.

I would just like to add that if you purchase the brain and still glass you are still able to slowly build a set of PL prime lenses by purchasing them one at a time off Ebay or anytime you find a good deal somewhere. You can slowly build up to a complete set over time and as money allows, whereas, a brain would require a lump sum of cash and could not as easily be purchased over time. Just my thoughts anyways, hope it helps.
 
dino g said:
without the brain no one will want your glass..if you have a brain and offer a deal with glass then your are making money on both and building clients. making fair money from lots of clients is, to me, better than making great money on just a few clients...volume beats high margin always..think mcdonalds...however unlike mcdonalds it all comes down to your quality as either a dp or dit..so if you are adding value which goes beyond the commodity of your gear then you will work and always make money on your gear...the gear doesnt work, you do!
Click to expand...

+1

Also in my experience, no one will want your brain/camera if you don't have the glass to go with it. They might at first until everyone in town has an Epic brain, then it becomes an issue of what package you can provide and how easy you can make a customer's shopping experience. The big rental houses win out in the end since they will often have most everything someone needs for a production. The small owner-operator types need to offer different value-added services in the form of DIT, DP, AC, etc... Otherwise you will be left with a camera package that you have to rent out for the price of dirt just to maintain cash flow.

RPP's are still a tough-sell around here. Everyone is pleased with the images they produce, but half the people calling up asking about a camera package, always want "Zeiss lenses". The other half don't have a clue either way and are coming from shooting HD and prosumer gear.

While I'm very happy with my RPP's. I often wish I had not waited around for them and just spent the extra to buy some Ultra Primes. Now that the RPP's are readily available, they are a great buy and I would recommend them. But the lack of focal lengths to choose from and the large MP-like size and hefty weight are factors to consider. For anyone looking to buy primes right now, definitely look at the RPP's. But also take a look at the new Cooke Panchros. The Zeiss CP2's are nice too, a few compromises made, but great size and build quality along with the ability to cover FF35.

Personally, I'm holding off all new glass purchases until I see what RED has in store for their FF35 Electronic Lenses.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
While I'm very happy with my RPP's. I often wish I had not waited around for them and just spent the extra to buy some Ultra Primes. Now that the RPP's are readily available, they are a great buy and I would recommend them. But the lack of focal lengths to choose from and the large MP-like size and hefty weight are factors to consider. For anyone looking to buy primes right now, definitely look at the RPP's. But also take a look at the new Cooke Panchros. The Zeiss CP2's are nice too, a few compromises made, but great size and build quality along with the ability to cover FF35.

Personally, I'm holding off all new glass purchases until I see what RED has in store for their FF35 Electronic Lenses.
Click to expand...

I would also add the illumina S35. New design T1.3 lenses. Gregory lives about a mile from me, so I've handled these lenses and they are quite nice. An extra stop of speed/dof, in a modern lens design and less than $30K for a six lens set is a pretty powerful combo.
 
Okay I agree only partially as this is not always the case, unless off course you have Master Primes, but even then I found
clients looking for Cookes, and some times when we had Cookes they wanted Ultra Primes, so Glass its always second in Line,
Buy a Brain, the Glass can be rented out to fit the Taste and Needs of your Client, but with No Brain, you can have all the
glass you want it will rent but will not be the same as having a Brain.

Just remember that a Brain alone, is not in off, you need a Support package to go with.

If you can get both, then do, I have RED's RPP's and RPZ's as well as the Leica Summilux C coming next year, but I'm sure
I'll have people ask for what I don't have, and those will need to be rented out wither way.
 
It depends on your business model, whether you are renting, or using the camera yourself. Whereas I agree with what's been said about the desirability of owning the brain, if the kit is for you, then glass is the best investment. I've changed camera bodies, motion and stills many times, and always found I lost a lot of money selling used bodies.

Take for example, Kyle, I think it was selling an ARRI III kit that cost near 100K new for 10K. But I have sold glass for more than I paid for it many times. IE A Nikon Fisheye 8mm f2,8 that I paid less than a thousand for got 2500 recently.

So it's usage versus investment. Ya makes yer choice and ya takes yer chances.
 
I think it matters what kind of work you do, what kind you want to do in the future, and also whether there's a rental house in your town. I rented RPPs a few times before buying, but got tired of FedEx-ing them in and out pretty quickly.
 
"Buy glass and rent a brain? Or buy a brain and rent glass?"

What?? Just shoot something :wink:
 
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