Scarlet S35 is now...

[Jannard]

I know that it is frustrating to hear a number and then see it go up. I get that. But understand that it isn't arbitrary. We discover new things (like HDRx) and want to include it. That takes more processing power... and more heat management. That means changes to the body... and development costs. And this is only one example. Other companies lock down and release. Then they will sell you the better one 6 months later. So you just bought two cameras to get what you really wanted. But both were what you expected to pay so you don't complain. We just don't do it that way... not saying we do it right and they are wrong, just different.

Another thing that gets us into trouble is talking as we think here on reduser. It doesn't matter how many times we say "things are subject to change, count on it"... people remember the numbers and think they were "promised". The sour posts continually remind me to re-think our communication philosophy.

Jim

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I think the majority of the frustration is due to the current economic climate and not to specific promises. It'll all blow over after we get a picture of what the pricing is going to shake out to be.

 

[George Tsai]

Another thing that gets us into trouble is talking as we think here on reduser. It doesn't matter how many times we say "things are subject to change, count on it"... people remember the numbers and think they were "promised". The sour posts continually remind me to re-think our communication philosophy.

Jim

but for all you know its the competition hoping on this forum trying to do just that There's nothing like a company where customers have direct line you. your competition is just hating :biggrin:

 

[Adam J McKay]

But what about when 6 months from now you discover its possible to add another new amazing feature? Then when that's done, and you discover you can do X, which is the next big amazing thing, what do you do? Is the camera going to be perpetually pushed backed? It just seems that it is very cyclical in nature.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of RED and am super excited to see what the Epic and eventual EPIC Light/Scarlet can do, im just voicing my worry about why I think the leafs might win the cup before a production Scarlet exists.

 

[Scott Miller]

@Jim....

I know this does not help many, but the cost of the Epic-X upgrade, IIRC, has not changed So if you were able and did commit to the Red One before the cutoff date, we got a fixed price, that did not change, and in fact keeps getting better with all of those things thrown in we did not know about!

Those who did not commit, due to finances or choice, do not flame me please. Neither Jim, Rd or anyone else caused you to not have the funding or foresight. "Time and unforeseen circumstance" comes to mind as being applicable.

Although I am sure some get frustrated... I like the communication. Adds excitement to my otherwise dull and dreary existence

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

One would think the whole "Professional" thread here in Recon might get the majority of folks appreciating the how and why of the RED philosophy.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I know that it is frustrating to hear a number and then see it go up. I get that. But understand that it isn't arbitrary. We discover new things (like HDRx™) and want to include it. That takes more processing power... and more heat management. That means changes to the body... and development costs. And this is only one example. Other companies lock down and release. Then they will sell you the better one 6 months later. So you just bought two cameras to get what you really wanted. But both were what you expected to pay so you don't complain. We just don't do it that way... not saying we do it right and they are wrong, just different.

Another thing that gets us into trouble is talking as we think here on reduser. It doesn't matter how many times we say "things are subject to change, count on it"... people remember the numbers and think they were "promised". The sour posts continually remind me to re-think our communication philosophy.

Jim

I completely understand you wanting to make the best camera ever, but at some point, you do need to draw a line and release something. Once again, the "Scarlet" conceptualization has changed to something different than it had been previously. And while these new features are awesome, it just means a lot of people are going to have to shoot on other cameras and wait for your new amazing technology.

I personally thought the concept of 'obsolescence obsolete' was about building a modular camera system that could be upgraded in time as newer technologies (and faster) had been released. With this in mind, it would seem to me that the original "doing it differently" was that 6 months down the road when another company releases a new camera with all the features that you really wanted, your viewpoint was, look, only replace the things that have been upgraded. You don't have to replace everything that didn't change.

Instead of that I see. "Well, we can make this even better so let's refocus, re-engineer, re-brand" It must be crazy for you all to have this constantly moving target that you all keep changing every few months.

I believe in the engineering world, we refer to what you are doing as "feature creep"

But in any case, I look forward to the day I can try out your previously Scarlet S35 camera!

 

[Stephen Matthews]

But what about when 6 months from now you discover its possible to add another new amazing feature? Then when that's done, and you discover you can do X, which is the next big amazing thing, what do you do? Is the camera going to be perpetually pushed backed? It just seems that it is very cyclical in nature.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of RED and am super excited to see what the Epic and eventual EPIC Light/Scarlet can do, im just voicing my worry about why I think the leafs might win the cup before a production Scarlet exists.

so next year, because this is the year we win it WOOO!!...... ah, I can't even lie to myself, but we might make the playoffs...... no no we wont, I can't even say that..... damn leafs

 

[Bill Anderson]

... And Bill still doesn't have a sense of humor.

No disrespect meant though.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

We are trying to hit capability milestones.
Jim

This "capability" milestone will be a turning point for so many indie filmmakers. I don't believe its the camera that makes for a good film. I believe a good script makes for a good film. That said, I want to have the capability to experiment, learn, execute, and RED is striving to deliver that capability at a price point where I can be an owner of the toolset.

Ofcourse, I do hope the pricing doesn't shift so much that it goes out of reach, but its a given that the price must shift. I save more if I need to and get the tools I need, and if I really can't, then I'm certainly no worse off than I was before.

I'm confident RED will do the right thing both for the target user base and for itself as a company.

 

[Chris S. Alexander]

... people remember the numbers and think they were "promised".

Jim

I too am guilty of planning my costs ahead of time and hoping that they don't change, however you (personally) tell us that everything is subject to change so I always make sure to keep that in mind.

I admit sometimes it does get frustrating, but I appreciate your telling us everything as it happens. It makes me feel like I'm in the loop and a part of the process.

The benefits of "being a part of the process" far outweigh the downside of price changes. I respect you and your company for giving as much information as you do. Thanks!

 

[Jim Retar]

Other companies lock down and release.

I think I speak for a fair few when I say that, sooner or later, a lock down and launch is necessary.

I have complete respect for you for wanting to put out the best possible cameras you can.... but surely this is what Epic-X is? The pinnacle?

I personally think that the Scarlet range would have benefited from a lock down some time ago... forget HDRx™™, high frame rates, high REDCODE etc... that is Epic-X's domain.

In fact, I still believe it would be the best route for Epic Light. The MX sensor is immense.... HDRx™™/frame rates and high redcode would be great separating lines between Light and X and would justify the price difference that people seem to want.

Just my 2 cents... no offense meant at all.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

C'mon, folks, this process has redefined "transparency" in corporate America. Red has been completely upfront about every snag and advancement. The camera, when it arrives, will be worth the price you are asked to pay. There's no deadline on having your money. When you get the cash, the camera will be waiting for you.

@Bill: (no worries.)

 

[Elsie N]

But what about when 6 months from now you discover its possible to add another new amazing feature? Then when that's done, and you discover you can do X, which is the next big amazing thing, what do you do? Is the camera going to be perpetually pushed backed? It just seems that it is very cyclical in nature.

Adam, as an outsider observing RED, it appears that RED has reached its immediate goal of matching film. So I don't think they will be delaying the coming cameras since they have now released a sorta firm date for some and will probably do the same for the rest of the lines before too long.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

I know that it is frustrating to hear a number and then see it go up. I get that. But understand that it isn't arbitrary.

Thank you that is nice to hear (not being sarcastic here). But Jim isn't there also another aspect to take into concideration. If the price increase too much, a bunch of people won't be able to buy it. Some of them might buy another Red product and some might choose other brands and solutions. Couldn't that be a potential loss, and therefore important to take into concideration?

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Guys, Epic is the heart of the program. If all roads lead to Rome, then all cameras are born from Epic. Doing this level of development would be impossible if the team stopped everything and tooled up a production line for yesterday's models. I want the camera, but I don't want a problematic product- I want a well-vetted professional tool. I want it yesterday, but I'd rather have it great than soon.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Bottom line - Jim's approach is sound from my perspective. One of the great things about RED and why they have evolved so much faster than most companies is that they are product driven not marketing driven.

Digression Alert:

Before I get flamed by all the people that buy the take that RED is all hype I suggest you look no further than this forum to see where the bulk of the hype came from. Just because Jim and the Red Team are making cameras that a segment of the population of camera geeks gushes over doesn't mean that the actual people at RED have lost perspective. Sorry about the rant, but it rankles me when people transfer the blame to an associated party to suit their own agenda, in this case denigrating RED for carefully culled froth from a few enthusiastic fanboys.

In any case, my sense from reading Jim's post is that they will look pragmatically at the available technology portfolio for various elements of the entire camera system and the cost of moving up or down the technology ladder in terms of benefits worth having. Based on the remarkable progress made by RDC over the last 4 years I feel confident that they will work out design envelopes and feature sets that "land" on basic hardware niches in terms of bus speeds, cooling requirements or some other key piece of the puzzle. I think they are also savvy about the real world benefits of creating two very similar rigs from a modular/form factor standpoint and then offering modules with varying capabilities at appropriate price points.

FWIW I think criticizing RED, a company that entered an industry with a history of outrageous margins and choose fair value pricing instead is unfair. I think its also fair to say that the development curve at the other camera companies has accelerated and their pricing models changed since the R1 dropped. So if you do decide to get an AF100 or a F3 you should send Jim a thank you note, just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[Jannard]

But what about when 6 months from now you discover its possible to add another new amazing feature? Then when that's done, and you discover you can do X, which is the next big amazing thing, what do you do? Is the camera going to be perpetually pushed backed? It just seems that it is very cyclical in nature.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of RED and am super excited to see what the Epic and eventual EPIC Light/Scarlet can do, im just voicing my worry about why I think the leafs might win the cup before a production Scarlet exists.

Good question. We do need to lock down at some point. We just have regarding Scarlet 2/3" 8X Fixed and EPIC-S, EPIC-X and EPIC-M.

The new ideas we have going forward won't be discussed until we are very close to releasing them.

Jim

Jim

 

[Lee Saxon]

It doesn't matter how many times we say "things are subject to change, count on it"... people remember the numbers and think they were "promised".Jim

I don't take half-asleep 4am recon posts as press releases or promises, and I never feel cheated or lied to when something changes, but that doesn't mean I won't sometimes feel disappointed.

But I think the open communication thing engenders an incredible amount of loyalty and is worth the risk of causing occasional disappointment, and I hope you never stop!

 

[Joel J. Feigenbaum]

Blair:
Well thought out. Well said!