Why does Epic look like a 5D DSLR?

[Terry VerHaar]

Daniel - FWIW, I completely agree with you; Epic would not be my preferred choice for most still situations either. The fact that I can't afford one, notwithstanding. Jim will have to adjust his sales projections for both of us and live with only one island. :yikes:

I don't do all that much still photography anymore and when I do, my newly acquired Canon 60D will be enough. For my cinema shooting, however, I am very eager for a Scarlet and couldn't be more stoked for what that will offer.

 

[Andrew M.]

Well, you all are right, in the point of views you have.
But it depends where you stand, you will have different point of view.

I never used any movie camera so far for taking stills for still photography work.
Stills from these cameras were completely unusable.

First time it happen, was on RED.
10-12MP frames are comparable to DLSR I had in 2008/2009

Well, last year I have noticed when editing RED footage that some frames are just incredible.

So I started using RED for stills even for stills that normally do not have much dynamic in it.

Well, maybe you do not catch much dynamic but you may catch just this perfect shadows or highlights on the model body or face at this particular moment that otherwise would escape your attention.

How many pictures you have to take before you can pick just “the one”, what the ration 100/1
Rolling 24 fps you have much higher probability to hit this “the one” sooner rather than later.

If we had 10-12MP RAW on any other movie camera I would probably notice this phenomenon much earlier.

Don’t forget that RED is the first camera that delivers RAW > 10MP footage in rungun format.

I can’t explain this phenomenon, but if you can’t control scene 100% and you do not have 30 years experience taking stills, the rolling 24fps DLSR can help you allot.

OK call me inexperienced.....

 

[Daniel Kunz]

Hey Terry, thanks for your reply.
That 60D seems to be a good step forward for the Canon HDSLR.

I'm currently looking at the Sony A55 for octocopter- and steadycam work
(because of good Phasedetect Autofocus in Video mode, in camera optical stabilisator and small size/weight)

I wonder why RED didn't include optical Stabilisation to the sensor.
Any comments or ideas?

 

[Brian Petrie]

Hey Terry, thanks for your reply.
That 60D seems to be a good step forward for the Canon HDSLR.

I'm currently looking at the Sony A55 for octocopter- and steadycam work
(because of good Phasedetect Autofocus in Video mode, in camera optical stabilisator and small size/weight)

I wonder why RED didn't include optical Stabilisation to the sensor.
Any comments or ideas?

I can't say for sure but I can say why I would not want it included. When shooting with a digital cinema camera everything I do is deliberate. If I want a clean smooth shot, I will put it on a good tripod with a good fluid head and do so, no need for optical stabilization. However, with built in stabilization you can not be as deliberate, and if i want a desired effect it may not turn out properly because the stabilization tries to "smooth out" what I am doing and I guess you could just turn it off but I am not sure if this would still have any ill effects. So in my opinion, if Red wants to add stabilization they will add it to future Red Electronic lenses instead of the body so you can only use that option deliberately (when you put that lens on). Anyways, just my two cents.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

So in my opinion, if Red wants to add stabilization they will add it to future Red Electronic lenses instead of the body so you can only use that option deliberately (when you put that lens on). Anyways, just my two cents.

While I am not sure that stabilization would have negative effects if built into the body (aside from cost and design issues), I agree that it makes more sense in the lens. I am not an expert on this but this seems to be the way it gets done in other circles. I haven't had enough experience with the IS ("stabilized") lens I recently purchased with my 60D so I can't yet comment on how well it works (or not). I am sure there many others here that DO have the experience.

 

[JanneJansson]

I am fully confused by DSMC concept. Why would anyone who can afford an Epic configure it like a DSLR and use it to take still pictures? Just carry around a DSLR, which will perform better.

I do see the very real benefit of the small form factor for some types of motion shooting. But that's not the same as buying a $25K movie camera and using it in situations where a $1K stills camera would give better results.

Because it's a good configuration for human hands and Epic is one of the worlds best cameras (if not the best). I'm a film guy, and primarily shoot moving images so for me it's a given way. If a $1K camera works for you, then I recommend you go with that.

Best

 

[Daniel Kunz]

Because it's a good configuration for human hands and Epic is one of the worlds best cameras (if not the best). I'm a film guy, and primarily shoot moving images so for me it's a given way. If a $1K camera works for you, then I recommend you go with that.

Best

How does the price have anything to do with that?

I am talking about
1. Viewfinder
2. Aspect Ratio
3. Data
4. Wide-Angle lenses
5. Heat
6. Ergonomics
7. Autofocus
8. Metering

I'm pretty sure that even a lowcost T2i with the same Lens, shooting RAW would perform better on these points at taking stills than a RED. And i'm not saying red is bad or anything. It's just not made to replace a DSLR. It coincidentally has a great enough resolution to aproximately match that of DSLR's. But that's about it.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Daniel,

I am of the same sentiment, by and large. But I think one real advantage for the Epic is DR. I believe DSLR's top-out around 9.5 to ten stops of dynamic range. So the Epic adds another three stops, w/o HDRx.

 

[Daniel Kunz]

But I think one real advantage for the Epic is DR.

I totally agree with you Peter. That is a very good example of the advantages the RED has over a DSLR for Stills.

Are there any other? I would like to be able to list the pro's and cons of each system so i could make an informed decision.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Other than the ones already mentioned here (some of which are compelling and some of which I feel aren't, FWTW) I don't know.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

I'm currently looking at the Sony A55 for octocopter- and steadycam work
(because of good Phasedetect Autofocus in Video mode, in camera optical stabilisator and small size/weight)

When you are dealing with jello, no amount of image stabilization or phasedetect is going to save you. (in fact they will probably make the video worst) That is not mentioning crappy codec/resolution. You really are limiting your options. If you don't have the funds then yes, that is probably a good option.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the original q sounds to me like: why does shaq oneill look like woody allen?
both are humans, right?

 

[Daniel Kunz]

When you are dealing with jello, no amount of image stabilization or phasedetect is going to save you. (in fact they will probably make the video worst) That is not mentioning crappy codec/resolution. You really are limiting your options. If you don't have the funds then yes, that is probably a good option.

Of course i am very aware of my options beeing limited with that kind of solution, but i believe that sensorstabilisation can reduce the amount of micro-jello. How do you know "in fact" "probably"? is it a fact or a probability? explain your argument.
I can allways turn stabilisation off if i want to. So more options there.

Does the scarlet autofocus continuously? or only when touched?
Is there a Thread about Autofocus and how it's going to work?

 

[Zac C]

Of course i am very aware of my options beeing limited with that kind of solution, but i believe that sensorstabilisation can reduce the amount of micro-jello. How do you know "in fact" "probably"? is it a fact or a probability? explain your argument.
I can allways turn stabilisation off if i want to. So more options there.

Does the scarlet autofocus continuously? or only when touched?
Is there a Thread about Autofocus and how it's going to work?

Looking at the Sony A55 specs, the auto stabilization will not do you any good when dealing with helicopters. To "prove" his fact, look at any CMOS camera with an optical stabilizer, it removes the shakiness, but not the Jello, or micro-jitters that make it look like you're viewing an image through a plate of jello.

No word on Scarlet and continuous autofocus. But since Jim props up the Scarlet saying it'll be great for ENG and sports, one would have to assume continuous auto-focus has to be enabled.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Of course i am very aware of my options beeing limited with that kind of solution, but i believe that sensorstabilisation can reduce the amount of micro-jello. How do you know "in fact" "probably"? is it a fact or a probability? explain your argument.

[/QUOTE

Ok. with jello, it is a result of scanning not stabalization. First you have to separate the two.

I think you are correct that it may improve what you have termed as micro jello.

Now go and see some examples on the internet of jello in whip pans with dslr's.

With these examples in mind, you can clearly see that stabalization will not improve these conditions.

Why? Because sensor stabalization means that the sensor is stabilized around it's center of gravity. The best way to understand this is to draw a sensor and then draw a circle around it. The sensor can only be stabalized around that circle of axis. With a whip pan as you might want to use on a Steadicam (which is going to stabilize your image anyway) you are still having sensor read problems because it has nothing to do with stabalization. The sensor is moving across the scene and not around the circle of axis. Does that make sense?


By all means, please go into a sony store and test this for yourself before you make your purchase. Play back the footage and carefully look at the variables (quick pans and tilts both with autofocus and stabilization on and off) and ask yourself, can i work in with these limitations? Please report back here on your experiences or even better post the examples. I guarantee you will never ever compare this camera's video ability with a red model ever again.

Sony's marketing is great, don't get me wrong. But like their sensor, you have to read in between the lines

Sony for the octocopter would be good... I'd buy it just for that... and that is a good little niche market in web advertising, real estate, but all round film making as a tool, there just is no comparison.

 

[Daniel Kunz]

Sony for the octocopter would be good... I'd buy it just for that... and that is a good little niche market in web advertising, real estate, but all round film making as a tool, there just is no comparison.

You are right. For all round film making i have the 5DmkII which i am usign allmost every day. (you know since i can't buy a Scarlet yet)

and the sony would just be for octocopter, steadycam and other fun stuff.
Since there is no manual mode for video. there are very few options to use it.

But that's the point. I don't think there is one thing that does them all.
IMO the Red Scarlet would be to expensive to hang underneath a octocopter when flying over water, Rocks etc...

 

[Mike Peters]

A situation where using a DSLR would be a definite advantage, would be extended time lapse, where tying up an EPIC would not be an option.

I was fascinated by how BBC used a Nikon to film a shot for "Life" over a 2 year period.

It's very nicely done. Here is the clip on how they did it. I love the wooden crane!

http://www.redworks.co.nz/2010/10/bbc-life-101-1st-lesson-not-everything.html

 

[shashbugu]

How does the price have anything to do with that?

I am talking about
1. Viewfinder
2. Aspect Ratio
3. Data
4. Wide-Angle lenses
5. Heat
6. Ergonomics
7. Autofocus
8. Metering

.

Please re-read the specs for the Epic.