Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Professional...

Status
Not open for further replies.
"run! the tongue is all over the place now. Ican't resist macaco dance
i sleep jumpy at all this, you are dust
feel like an external disturb trying to nail things down.
fire everything please.
i die if so slow. at the same moment, i'be barack next year, gonzo
can't you focus on the matter at all eh?
don't make me eat your head, let's go back to super-now.
put an instantayour constant hijacking neous videocassette like those of spaceballs or i'll melt please."

OH MY!!!!!!

Wow

I did not know Hunter S Thompson was still around.
 
Brian Ferguson said:
"run! the tongue is all over the place now. Ican't resist macaco dance
i sleep jumpy at all this, you are dust
feel like an external disturb trying to nail things down.
fire everything please.
i die if so slow. at the same moment, i'be barack next year, gonzo
can't you focus on the matter at all eh?
don't make me eat your head, let's go back to super-now.
put an instantayour constant hijacking neous videocassette like those of spaceballs or i'll melt please."

OH MY!!!!!!

Wow

I did not know Hunter S Thompson was still around.
Click to expand...

Ha, ha,….

Alberto, (I like your earlier posts I can’t respond to them as it will chew up too much off topic acreage),

That’s very funny, there you are trying to turn oppositional defiant disorder into a new technical art form by being deliberately obscure, and hence un-friendly, and someone posts a nice friendly post comparing you to Hunter S Thompson.

I suppose my earlier statement does deserve a kick to the balls for being such a patronizing git.

But it seems the squirrels are going to eat you alive anyway,


Watch out Alberto, …the squirrels… the squirrels, …..the squirrels..!!!
 
Jason Sinclair said:
I consider myself a professional artist:

I want tools that are versatile.
I want tools that give exceptional quality.
I want tools that are adaptable in the most simplistic, least expensive manner.
I want tools that are rugged.

That is all.
Click to expand...

I really liked this (I’m not being sarcastic).

I think I will print it large and put it on the wall as these are excellent maxims for any designer (of camera related systems).

These are my own internal criteria, but I have to tell you that there is no end of bureaucrats that will go out of their way to completely erode such ideas. I am currently designing 3d imaging systems that are a hybrid between surveying instrument and very precise stereo imaging systems (and associated software). Eventually we use EPIC for some of our proposed systems (that’s why I’m here).

I believe good design is a compromise to get to the criteria that you (Jason) set out, but it always comes back to budget. In designing these systems, constantly, its “Does it have to be such high resolution…”, “Does it really have to be that precise…”, “Does this component really need to be machined from INVAR”, “Do the bearings really need to ABEC 9”, “Do you really need 5 arc second encoders”, “Four and five axis CNC and associated software”, “can’t you use cheaper retro focal lenses…”, “does it really need to be calibrated …”, “Does the machine shop have to be climate controlled within these limits”, “Does it really take that long to design and develop a truly flexible and adaptable system that is simple…”, so on and so forth.

No end of well meaning executive staff to completely compromise a system, and exactly as Alberto says, you end up (sorry for the language) with a shit. I.e. a bit like what Alberto says, a shit that can only be used by shits to create more shit. (This of course is the exact opposite of what we aim to achieve).

Jason thanks so much for your post, I will print it out and use it as the basis to kick butt for the next six months at least, and Albero I will definately use the the chain of shit argument. Good engineering has to be argued for, it doesn’t speak for itself..

I think this is why RED cuts through as the guy at the top has the money (JIM), and the vision, and everyone else it seems at RED team with tallent, share the same forward thinking coherent vision as well. It makes a hell of a difference (believe me).

I get back to this idea that PROFESSIONAL = UNCOMPRIMISED DESIGN

But to make it affordable something has to be comprimised...

Then the name of the game becomes what ARE you going to compromise????
What features, capability and qualities are you willing to give up? This conversation goes on in the designer’s head just as much as in the consumers head.
It might be more constructive to a designer to ask what 1 feature or aspect can you live without (as a user), rather than asking for Santa’a wish list?
Jim can’t say "what one feature can you live without" as we all try to be all encompassing, but it is a VERY useful metric to design around, and thereby give people what they want at a good price.

What one feature can you live without and still deliver a professional result?


Go Squirrels!!!
 
Hi Eric,
Your job sounds exciting.
I don't know how he's doing it but the compromises keep disappearing. Whats on offer more than meets my expectations and no other camera i know of in any price range has a package like this.
If anything, would be the point on adaptability. It is this area i hope evolves away from the proprietary systems currently in place and red/other manufactures develop the same "think outside of the box" mentality and rethink everything from the ground up.
 
A professional tool is a tool in the hands of a professional. If it's not in the hands of a professional, it's not professional.

IE, EPIC is not professional. YET....

I await the day with baited breath.
 
To answer Eric's question:

The one feature that I could do without is uncompressed RAW. I never thought I would say that, and if it was possible to get it without crazy amounts of hard drive space and bulky hardware than I would of course want it. But REDcode is one of the beauties of the system and it keeps getting better and less compressed. So, there may come a time when an uncompressed RAW image is possible with RED camera technology but what Epic will offer I think is one of the better compressed options that will be available. I'd rather get all of the other things RED is working on right now to get better imagery.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
To answer Eric's question:

The one feature that I could do without is uncompressed RAW. I never thought I would say that, and if it was possible to get it without crazy amounts of hard drive space and bulky hardware than I would of course want it. But REDcode is one of the beauties of the system and it keeps getting better and less compressed. So, there may come a time when an uncompressed RAW image is possible with RED camera technology but what Epic will offer I think is one of the better compressed options that will be available. I'd rather get all of the other things RED is working on right now to get better imagery.
Click to expand...

That’s very funny because that’s the one thing that I cannot live without; I know sensibly I am by far in the minority here and don’t expect Santa’s/JIM's miracles to help out total “minority” applications . But the RAW plus good dynamic range would be amazing for us. That’s mainly because our applications are very “geeky” and high signal quality, high spatial integrity are the highest on the list.

I could tolerate...

1. bad ergonomics (but the camera has to be narrow as possible),

2. it could be ugly as sin

3. sound non-existent,

4. Be somewhat fragile, i.e. non rugged, (but if treated properly be reliable)

5. I could even tolerate lousy technical support, (to larger extent).

6. The fewer industry standards, the better, especially in terms of lens mounts, i.e. Just pure sensor baby…anything else just gets in the way of what we really want to do


However, what I really need to get the job done and serve our professional needs...

1. The tiniest possible cube that we can bolt onto, with the highest resolution, signal and spatial quality we can find (we build the rest).




[(not strictly on topic) The newer Foveon 15MP (*3 layer) sensors seem interesting; the ones with three physical layers of RGB in the sensor, like film/diapositive, and does not need to be “De-bayered” and hence a higher proportional spatial resolution per pixel (in theory by a factor root 2 (in both dimensions).

www.dpreview.com/news/1010/10100504Sigmainterview.asp

It seems that dynamic applications are on the back burner for now, but you would think that that would be a hot area for digital cinematography, unless speed is an intractable problem and real time (lossy) compression a necessity at 24ish - 30 fps. Killer amount of data to store…].
 
Pro means for example when I put two REDs side by side with same settings and did blackshading every day, this two cams should look nearly same. If you take two reds side by side you can be sure that they look totally different. An example is attached.... that costs additional time in CC if you are able to match them right. It is not always possible to get two cams which are nearly same from your rental house... factory calibration of the sensors should be matched more !!!!

http://dcs.co.at/pics/reds_farbtafeln.jpg
 
Rainer Fritz said:
Pro means for example when I put two REDs side by side with same settings and did blackshading every day, this two cams should look nearly same. If you take two reds side by side you can be shure that they look totally different. An example is attached.... that costs additional time in CC if you are able to match them right. It is not always possible to get two cams which are nearly same from your rental house... factory calibration of the sensors should be matched more !!!!

http://dcs.co.at/pics/reds_farbtafeln.jpg
Click to expand...


:thumbsup:
 
It is not always possible to get 2 of any camera to look the same from your rental house. If you know of any let me know.

Thankfully with the power of RAW the color fix is flexible in post. Provided your post guy knows how to properly use all the power at his disposal.

Try to fix a wrong white balance with a HD camera in post. With RED 2 clicks and I am gone for coffee.
 
Ben Graham said:
It is not always possible to get 2 of any camera to look the same from your rental house. If you know of any let me know.

Thankfully with the power of RAW the color fix is flexible in post. Provided your post guy knows how to properly use all the power at his disposal.

Try to fix a wrong white balance with a HD camera in post. With RED 2 clicks and I am gone for coffee.
Click to expand...

Most stills cameras (that also shoot video now) allow you to customize the sensor's colour balance to get rid of any colour bias. Sure, you'd need to have both cameras in order to match them together perfectly, but rental houses should have no problems doing that as part of their acceptance testing if the option was available in camera. Hell, you could even do it on set too, it doesn't take too long and, as mentioned, it'll save you boat loads in the CC department.

...for some reason I already thought it was in the R1... maybe I'm getting my cameras confused.
 
Rainer Fritz said:
Pro means for example when I put two REDs side by side with same settings and did blackshading every day, this two cams should look nearly same. If you take two reds side by side you can be sure that they look totally different. An example is attached.... that costs additional time in CC if you are able to match them right. It is not always possible to get two cams which are nearly same from your rental house... factory calibration of the sensors should be matched more !!!!

http://dcs.co.at/pics/reds_farbtafeln.jpg
Click to expand...

Rainer,

the first thing about matching two cameras is to get optics or lenses that can match perfect, than later you think about sensor and post...

Why?

Because the light first goes through the lens glass and than later hits the sensor...

Just my 2 Austrian Schillings!!!
 
Another issue that is unavoidable is at what time the sensor chips are cut/created.
Cameras with serial #'s that are in close proximity will tend to match more closely while serial's that are far apart have a greater chance of being different.
 
I love to work with RAW footage and specially with RED RAW... And yes I know it is in a lot cases possible to match two cameras with a few clicks in rcx for example. But thats not in a lot cases... If you look to my comparison chart try to match a low serial number with a high serial number... the response of the sensor is that different (magentas for example) that is hard to match... and that costs you additional time in CC...
in our region you have a few days in CC for a feature and every additional hour you need is a pain in the a...
sorry Sanjin, but we are working with the best lenses on the market (master primes, cooke S4 etc.) this is not the case.... even when we work on 3D with matched lenses.
What I say is, that the difference in color response is often too large... thats it... and in a lot of cases when you have only some days with a second cam on set you are not able to choose that one which is close to your main cam....
 
Rainer Fritz said:
sorry Sanjin, but we are working with the best lenses on the market (master primes, cooke S4 etc.) this is not the case.... even when we work on 3D with matched lenses.
Click to expand...


Rainer,

if you ask professional at Zeiss or Cooke and they would tell you that you have to always use lenses from the same batch when you have to work with multiple camera shooting.

The same can be applied to sensors/imagers especially with digital CMOS cameras like a RED, Alexa, SI-2K, etc... always work with the cameras from the same batch otherwise...

That means you have to request from your rental house those two conditions with lenses and cameras and then all it should be fine, almost perfect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top