Late...

[Lauri Kettunen]

Although personally I find the addition of HDRx™ into Scarlet as a good move, still, symphatize a lot anybody who finds this decision as a big disappoinment.

It's easily understandable that if one has been dreaming and waiting for such a time for Scarlet, that the last minute change for even a better Scarlet but with the increased cost is likely to create a significant disappointment. Giving up of a dream is never easy, and it's human that some want to share the corresponding feelings in this kind of forum. It's always the reader's choice whether one listens or not, so what comes to myself, I find absolutely no reason to get frustated of such comments. Instead, feel sorry for everybody who feel their dream is lost.

Still, perhaps worth to add, when I heard about Red One for the first time around 2006 or early 2007, I quickly estimated that it will be a too expensive system for my needs. But, since I understood also what they were technically thinking of --that R1 was bound to succeed-- couldn't resist the idea of getting one. Eventually, everything got arranged much easier than I ever expected. That is, the best tools opens also all sorts of financial possibilities that are not possible with prosumer level equipment. So, even if somebody feels Scarlet is a lost dream, I would encourage to hold on the dream and to consider of the advantages brought by the camera. After all, getting back the additional $1000 cost of the HDRx™ mode should not be that difficult say by renting the camera or by assisting somebody who is making his/her living with cameras.

 

[Milan O.]

1. It's irritating that you can't recognize how it'd bother someone who is making particular plans around the use of a camera for it to be postponed repeatedly, over and over again. And don't tell me "buy something else" cause I already have. Don't tell me to rent because I do. Then you lose your mind and act like everyone who doesn't worship the ground RED walks on is irrational. Please, gather your thoughts before returning to the discussion. I still plan to purchase a Scarlet but the trend is getting fairly ridiculous. I love RED and what they have told us about these cameras sounds awesome.

2. The camera's have yet to be released. Apparently they are God's gift to mankind through the means of RED and I am excited for that to happen. But it hasn't happened, and keeps getting delayed significantly. How many times have we been a couple months from release only to have massive delays? So instead of complaining about the complainers, shut us up by giving us the goods.

1. Of course I can't since it, since day one, has been obvious (at least to me and others) that "all things are subject to change" and that we should "Count on it.". So, the people that can't understand this should learn how to read. My main language isn't English, but still I can understand the meaning of those sentences. No plans ever should be made by counting on things you can't affect, but hopes of course can be made out of wishes. Well, I'm pretty sure that the RED guys wish things to have been done faster with the same result, but they didn't. Deal with it.

It's not Jim's responsibility to make great cameras, he just does.
Therefore he may decide when and how they are going to be released for sale, and of course he will also have to take the consequences of further delays. And as a customer or someone who wants to become a customer, you either wait for the product or buy something else. I myself bought a 7D a year ago, so that I can learn how to shoot in the meanwhile. Of course I wish that I had a Scarlet instead but I don't. I use the available and affordable equipment at the time. When Scarlet comes out I'll hopefully have enough money to buy it. Still, it's not RED's responsibility to make sure that I can, it's mine. Their only responsibilities is to make a camera that works the way they claim that it does, that the camera doesn't break and that they can provide service if it breaks. It's not like they are your parents and are obliged to do things for you.

2. I still haven't read a post from RED claiming that the new cameras are God's gift to mankind, maybe I missed it? They say that they're awesome, and they're probably right. As I've already said it's been pretty clear from the beginning that the time for the release was and is uncertain, and as far as I can see there are "OK" temporary substitutes out on the market, and the pro's got RED One, even with an upgrade solution.
With even better features in the Scarlet installed it will kick my 7D's ass even further, and that's the way I want it. Also, Stewart compared the Scarlet with the Panasonic camera, which is very strange. It shoots compressed, isn't upgradeable and looks like crap. In the meantime I use the equipment available, and I'm happy not having to shoot on a regular video camera.

 

[David Rasberry]

3k RAW motion for $3k never existed. It was a nice concept, an idea, a myth. One that has proved to be impractical given the costs to develop and manufacture the camera and the current state of technology. Nobody is building such a camera at that price and nobody apparently can, Not Red, not Canon, not Panasonic, not Sony, period. Maybe in a few years it will be different.
AF-100, Canon XF series, Sony EX1/3 all have entry price levels around $6k or more for a very basic shooting package. Realistically $6k-$10k seems to be the low end range for an entry level pro quality motion production camera. One that has acceptably high image quality at least for 1080p broadcast HD, specifically designed and equipped to perform well for day in day out motion production work. Pro quality and pro functionality cost real bucks. Don't misinterpret "pro" to be a put down. To me it means a level of build quality and features that meet stringent needs for reliability, functionality, and production efficiency for those that do make a living with their cameras

 

[Ethan Cooper]

To piggyback on what David just said, the nearest real competitor to the 2/3" Scarlet is the Ikonskop which costs $9,512.42 USD. Seems that others who have tried to hit the same specs as Scarlet are coming to roughly the same price.

 

[RivaiC]

I called this as a side effects of open system like RED, people is not used to it and expect to delivers fast as soon as they make announcement. And most couldnt take "everything change in life", while it is true that the delay is quite long, that is why Jim started this thread but it seems the apology is not enough to some people.

But it is still a fact that RED never promised any delivery dates from the beginning.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

I'm amazed at how quickly this thread has spiraled out of control.

I'll admit, the extra $1,000 on the price tag will hurt a little, but it's a blessing in the long-run. HDRx™™™™ is going to save a lot of time (ie; money) on set because you won't necessarily need the massive lighting set ups normally required for certain shooting environments, mainly ones where you're having to compete with the sun.

I'm not saying you won't have to light your scenes anymore, the very notion of that is ludicrous. But this will help low-budget and indie filmmakers get better results without expensive, time consuming lighting set ups that most of them can't afford in the first place.

And yes, the delays are a pain, but Jim and the RED team are doing amazing things! They're building amazing camera systems and offering them at an even more amazing price. I'm confident that when the Scarlet is finally released, it's going to blow people's minds and surpass everyone's expectations.

Do what you need to do Jim and don't worry about all the griping on the forum about delays. I know you guys are working your @sses off, and I appreciate all that you've done. When these cameras are finally finished, I'll be waiting in line with a check. :smile:

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Nobody is building such a camera at that price and nobody apparently can, Not Red, not Canon, not Panasonic, not Sony

Actually, I don't think this is quite accurate. I would say both RED and Canon probably can. But RED won't - and shouldn't - because Canon likely will trickle their way into this price point, and RED is still too small to compete with Canon in that space. RED is smart to cede this sub-$5K space to Canon and leverage their emerging technology to make something better.

There will be other RAW options, I believe, besides RED, in time. But RED will already be moving forward with HDRx and Magic Motion. RAW will be yesterday's technology as soon as someone else in the sub-$10K market brings it, but by then, RED will already have moved forward.

RAW won't be the revolution anymore, it will have to be something else. Jim already has it and he knows it. That is why he is -- appropriately, in my opinion - re-positioning his company vision this week.

Instead of trying to compete with Canon, he is right to keep inventing new markets.

Once all of the sub-$5K crowd adjusts to the new vision and the cameras are released, RED will sell mountains of SCARLET cameras with HDRx and Magic Motion.

We all know it. We are just waiting for it.

 

[neil hartop]

1. Of course I can't since it, since day one, has been obvious (at least to me and others) that "all things are subject to change" and that we should "Count on it.". So, the people that can't understand this should learn how to read. My main language isn't English, but still I can understand the meaning of those sentences. No planes ever should be made by counting on things you can't affect, but hopes of course can be made out of wishes. Well, I'm pretty sure that the RED guys wish things to have been done faster with the same result, but they didn't. Deal with it.

It's not Jim's responsibility to make great cameras, he just does.
Therefore he may decide when and how they are going to be released for sale, and of course he will also have to take the consequences of further delays. And as a customer or someone who wants to become a customer, you either wait for the product or buy something else. I myself bought a 7D a year ago, so that I can learn how to shoot in the meanwhile. Of course I wish that I had a Scarlet instead but I don't. I use the available and affordable equipment at the time. When Scarlet comes out I'll hopefully have enough money to buy it. Still, it's not RED's responsibility to make sure that I can, it's mine. Their only responsibilities is to make a camera that works the way they claim that it does, that the camera doesn't break and that they can provide service if it's break. It's not like they are your parents and are obliged to do things for you.

2. I still haven't read a post from RED claiming that the new cameras are God's gift to mankind, maybe i missed it? They say that they're awesome, and they're probably right. As I've already said it's been pretty clear from the beginning that the time for the release was and is uncertain, and as far as I can see there are "OK" temporary substitutes out on the market, and the pro's got RED One, even with an upgrade solution.
With even better features in the Scarlet installed it will kick my 7D's ass even further, and that's the way I want it. Also, Stewart compared the Scarlet with the Panasonic camera, which is very strange. It shoots compressed, isn't upgradeable and looks like crap. In the meantime I use the equipment available, and I'm happy not having to shoot on a regular video camera.

Just reading your quote made me feel calmer! Everything you said is very true. Its a shame that red couldnt deliver in what they promised originally and I will probably not belive a word that comes out of Ted Shilowitz mouth ever again but I do believe this camera will be fantastic and a real breakthrough. I do feel that if people belive that the extra money they spend makes them professional is such a slap in the face to everyone who has spent the last year saving everything imaginable just to be told by Jannard and the people here that Im not a pro cause I can no longer afford a scarlet. That 'mantra' is so elitist and utter bullshit and is designed to let people who have that type of money to burn feel like their somehow buying a 'professional' badge.

If I cant afford a scarlet which like alot of people now I probably cant, that does not make me an amature and also saying im not one of the 'Big Boys' Because I cant 'Man Up'. What utter utter utter drivel to fuel your rich mans ego.

And if I did somehow buy a scarlet I still wouldnt consider myself a professional. I suggest alot of you take a good hard look at your showreels before you look at your wallets,

Love red, beginning to hate their ethics.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

The word "promise" is overly misused. No one from RED ever "promised" anything. They kept us informed and offered their "projections", along with prominent texts to the tune of "Subject to change, count on it" plastered all over any communication.

You read "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." every time Jim makes a post. I am not sure what else RED could do to highlight their policy...

 

[Erik Franzén]

Just reading your quote made me feel calmer! Everything you said is very true. Its a shame that red couldnt deliver in what they promised originally and I will probably not belive a word that comes out of Ted Shilowitz mouth ever again but I do believe this camera will be fantastic and a real breakthrough. I do feel that if people belive that the extra money they spend makes them professional is such a slap in the face to everyone who has spent the last year saving everything imaginable just to be told by Jannard and the people here that Im not a pro cause I can no longer afford a scarlet. That 'mantra' is so elitist and utter bullshit and is designed to let people who have that type of money to burn feel like their somehow buying a 'professional' badge.

If I cant afford a scarlet which like alot of people now I probably cant, that does not make me an amature and also saying im not one of the 'Big Boys' Because I cant 'Man Up'. What utter utter utter drivel to fuel your rich mans ego.

And if I did somehow buy a scarlet I still wouldnt consider myself a professional. I suggest alot of you take a good hard look at your showreels before you look at your wallets,

Love red, beginning to hate their ethics.

He never said the gear makes you a professional, he said he makes professional gear for professionals. That doesn't mean you don't have to know the gear to use it well, or that Jim looks down on other manufacturers. All he really said is that they will be focusing on serving people who are serious about their craft (oh, don't we have a word for that? Hmm, starts on 'p' I think...) and who wants to step their game up with some new gear. That includes professionals who have a 7D, 5D or shooting on film -- whatever. It's not the tool, it is the guy behind it - and read carefully the statement; you'll see that still holds true.

Basically, that is the same as saying RED won't compromise, no matter what comes their way, and as such the company's policy is to be the best at the best price -- but they are not joining the price race to the bottom; they are not going to compete in the low-end no-budget filmmaking category. If that offends you, or you feel they made promises somewhere along the way, then sorry -- but RED has shown where they stand and there is no changing that.

Stop bugging up over word choice btw. Hang around and get to know Jim and you'll understand he didn't really wish to piss anyone off - he simply made a statement about where RED stands and what their policy is; where their future lies.

...and just a friendly advice to everyone joining the discussion from elsewhere: calling REDUser(s) 'elitist pricks' is not the way to make friends. It wouldn't be any smarter than to go over to our sister site DVXUser and call them 'slobby amateurs'. Can we stop being five and at least make complaints heard in an intelligent and clearheaded way? This is turning into a shitpot and I don't want to be forced to take time off just because of bad mojo flowing through the RECON...

Thanks and happy shooting! :grouphug:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

There will be other RAW options, I believe, besides RED, in time. But RED will already be moving forward with HDRx™ and Magic Motion. RAW will be yesterday's technology as soon as someone else in the sub-$10K market brings it, but by then, RED will already have moved forward.

RAW won't be the revolution anymore, it will have to be something else. Jim already has it and he knows it. That is why he is -- appropriately, in my opinion - re-positioning his company vision this week.



...

Name one other company that looks like they are even CLOSE to releasing a camera that shoots RAW for under $10K. Heck, under $50K. RAW is still a big deal and will be for awhile. (UNless "in time" you mean 2-3 years.) But I love HDRx, too.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Name one other company that looks like they are even CLOSE to releasing a camera that shoots RAW for under $10K. Heck, under $50K. RAW is still a big deal and will be for awhile. (UNless "in time" you mean 2-3 years.) But I love HDRx™™, too.

Not even RAW. Let's just go for intraframe lightly compressed 10 or 12 bit 4:4:4 RGB. Even that would be something I would sit up and take notice of.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

J... I do feel that if people belive that the extra money they spend makes them professional is such a slap in the face to everyone who has spent the last year saving everything imaginable just to be told by Jannard and the people here that Im not a pro cause I can no longer afford a scarlet. That 'mantra' is so elitist and utter bullshit and is designed to let people who have that type of money to burn feel like their somehow buying a 'professional' badge...
.

Professional comes from profession. My daytime job is making films, I guess I'm a professional filmmaker.

That does not mean that a) I'm a good filmmaker, that I'm b) a knowledgable person or c) a rich man. "Professional" only means that filmmaking generates my incoming and pays my bills.

If you your daytime job is something else or if you are a student your are not a professional in the film industry. But you maybe a great talent.

For people who run production companies, who invest time and money into their business the quality of the gear that they use does play a vital role. Because good equipment, be it lenses, software, cranes, helicopter, you name it is costly, the very most production companies rent what they need. There can go so much wrong when making films the last thing one needs is not working equipment. "Professionals" know that - reliability is key.

Long story short: Most "Pros" I know don't own any equipment and never will. When I was a DP I worked the last 2 years without even a light meter. It came with the camera assistant - now need to own one. Now I own a RedOne because I changed my business model - this does not make me more "pro".

Take it easy,

Hans

 

[Buck Forester]

I'm guessing building a video camera from scratch is fairly hard. I can't even put mine back together when I drop it.

 

[Michael Olsen]

As someone in the midst of the very beginning of building my career I know what I want, and I know what I want to do. And a big part of that is excellence.

I feel like RED is the only company on the market right now who has released products in the past and is openly developing products now which have pushed boundaries to such an extent in favor of excellence. Surprisingly, they also did this in a relatively extremely affordable manner.

I am waiting patiently to finally view a specifications list and a price for a finished deliverable Scarlet S35. Until then, I support RED because I like what they are doing for me. They haven't given it to me yet, but their work with the RED (and M-X, and new color sciences, and new software, etc.) has convinced me this is a company deeply invested in what it does and committed to making products which don't really bother competing with what it available on the market, but rather challenge what is technologically possible. This has, with RED ONE, resulted in a camera which was, and years later, still is unlike any other. I also like the fact that RED continues to have open and honest communications on these forums which directly influences the development of the end product.

On D-Day, if RED isn't the best camera for me in terms of both capability and affordability, I won't buy it. But right now, realistically, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

 

[Juan Kaballero]

The question is WHEN ????
few month, one year, two years?

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

:emote_happyhappy:

The question is WHEN ????
few month, one year, two years?

Agree.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Never, it was all a scam... :shocked:

 

[David Rasberry]

Name one other company that looks like they are even CLOSE to releasing a camera that shoots RAW for under $10K. Heck, under $50K. RAW is still a big deal and will be for awhile. (UNless "in time" you mean 2-3 years.) But I love HDRx™, too.

Ikonscope DII and Otis Grapsas Drama 2/3" uncompressed raw camera, both like Scarlet still in development and neither yet for sale. Both will start at about $10k or a little less for a basic package without lenses. They are based on the same Kodak 1080p Bayer sensor.

 

[Nicole B]

Name one other company that looks like they are even CLOSE to releasing a camera that shoots RAW for under $10K. Heck, under $50K.

Me and my husband we also have a friend who's selling a hotel for several millions of euros. It is still a bargain. Let me know just in the case you'll have some dollars left.