TV Look vs. Movie Look - What is it really?

[Charles Angus]

With this device you can *finally* experience cinema at home as it should be, not the misguided effort of some DOP.

That's pretty funny.

 

[Marc Berger]

To me the difference is quite often: Tv is selling a story, cinema is telling a story.
The tools can be the same.
I liked always Ansel Adams words: "Making a picture" instead of "shooting a picture".
Maybe money versus soul?
Sometimes there is a lot of money in the hand of people with soul.
I really love that it will stay a visible border without anybody can finally say where the line of this border is starting or ending.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

The episode of Leverage that was on the website is now on TV in HD.

Looks GREAT, way way way better than it did on the website, not milky or low-contrasty at all.

Looks very cinematic in places, glad I got a chance to see it on my regular TV in HD.

 

[Scott Roberts]

Could it be frame rate? 24 fps vs. 30 fps? To get the Cine-Look, you're after 24 fps . . . in addition to a nice color grade and cinematic fades which have a particular style than your normal dip to black, etc.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

I don't think that's it. I mean, I have seen stuff shot on the HVX that looked very cinematic, and other stuff shot on the HVX that looks like a home movie.

http://www.vimeo.com/2229634 - This short film was shot on the HVX, and frankly it looks fantastic, it looks just as good as really good quality projects i've seen shot on 16mm.

While i've seen a few indie features that were shot with comparable cameras that also shot in 24P, and there is just something about them that doesn't look at good. Maybe since the first clip is shorter that offered a lot more time to mess with the lighting when compared to the run and gun that some people have to do for their own features?

 

[Bryan Arnold]

I'd say it's a combination of factors: DOF, FOV, lighting, grading, framing, progressive acquisition and turning off artificial sharpning. I'm not so sure about the amount of frames per second. In Europe it's 25 fps and that's not really a big difference to 24 fps. If you speed up 24fps cinematic content to 25fps it still looks cinematic.

 

[liquidigital]

You know, I really don't know. All the stars align I guess. I saw Slumdog Millionaire last night, probably one of the greatest movies I've ever seen, and it was filmed on the SI-2K. Never once during the movie did I even question what it was filmed with. It wasn't until I got home, meandering around online, that I found the tech specs.

 

[Dustin Sims]

A line producer told me that some shows like Lost and Law and Order or something are shot with 35mm cranking at 3/4 speed, actually recording 18fps. Could anyone confirm this? I would think that'd have some serious motion blur, but it looks pretty cinematic when it's playing on TV.

I've also noticed that 120Hz TVs look very un-cinematic while playing movies. It makes them look like home video.

 

[Wesley Scoggins]

I've seen a few 120hz TV's and they do look really odd. I can't really put my finger on it, other than there is something really "artificial" about it?

For Lost... I don't know about that... that sounds really weird. It would slow it down, so they would have to speed it up in post for it to look normal.

Cross-referencing it, I couldn't find anything on it, so maybe it's just a rumor. I can't imagine any reason they'd want to do that other than to save money, and it's not like they have budget problems on those those shows.

You'd only be saving like what... 114mm per every 24 frames? It's a forth of the cost advantage, for almost no discernible workflow advantage. Not to mention any cost benefits of filming at a slower speed would most likely be eaten up by all of the post work you'd have to do to get it to look normal. So I definitely think that's a rumor.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Leverage looks kinda milky

Leverage looks kinda milky

The abomination that is over compressed "HD" from every signal provider I know of should be the basis of a class action lawsuit - but we aren't likely to solve that here. One potentially helpful note is that DirectTV is moving from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 infrastructure. If you can actually find someone at DirectTV that knows their own tech (don't get me started) you might be able to get one of the newer decoders and a list of the programming sources that come off the new, MPEG-4 enabled birds.

I watched "Leverage" to see a RedOne shot show and ended up liking the story and characters, hope it continues to impress as it develops. Unfortunately it looked milky and low contrast on my SXRD based front projector (Sony Pearl) which looks plenty punchy with material like CSI.

The interior of the loft style office was particularly "misty" looking, like a fogger was left on too long. It sorta looked like when we used to get a double step up in the analog days when post would add the 7.5 IRE pedestal and then the tape operator would add it again at output. Perhaps the low con look was a creative choice. Maybe the DP was trying to add DR in acquisition and expected the colorist to re-map the values in DI. Hard to say.

What I found impressive was the exteriors, particularly the scene out on the deck with all the business people. White shirts, dark suits, dark skinned actors and unless they had every silk in LA flying - open sunlight, and they held both shadows and highlights amazingly well.

I hate to second guess a fellow DP, but, if I am correct in my assumption that concerns about the DR of the RedOne compared to 35mm negative led to breaking out an Ultra-Con (or some other low contrast filter) I understand the upside - BUT - the grade I saw needed some muscle applied to the toe and maybe a bit less gamma correction.

You may now call me a Monday morning quarterbacking asshole and tell me how weak my game is. FWIW I do respect the effort and skill it takes to shoot ensemble cast narrative on a tight schedule and get any kind of look at all. The show has some fine visual elements for which credit is due.

 

[M Most]

A line producer told me that some shows like Lost and Law and Order or something are shot with 35mm cranking at 3/4 speed, actually recording 18fps. Could anyone confirm this?

Essentially all sync sound programs shot on film or 24p digital cameras are done at 24fps, although individual shots on television and feature productions are often done at either under or overcrank speeds for various creative and technical reasons. These shots are rarely sync sound shots, they are done for visual emphasis - a slomo effect, a slight speed up for action scenes - these are common uses for non-sync shots. Often in a production day a director (or sometimes a stunt coordinator, or a visual effects supervisor) will call for overcranks or undercranks as needed. One of the primary advantages in film production has been the ability to do these speed changes whenever needed - a 22 fps shot here, a 48fps shot there. Red makes this possible on a digital camera.

 

[liquidigital]

A line producer told me that some shows like Lost and Law and Order or something are shot with 35mm cranking at 3/4 speed, actually recording 18fps. Could anyone confirm this? I would think that'd have some serious motion blur, but it looks pretty cinematic when it's playing on TV.

I've also noticed that 120Hz TVs look very un-cinematic while playing movies. It makes them look like home video.

This season of Law & Order is/has been shot with the Panavision Genesis.

New Episode tonight, 10:00 pm NBC

 

[M Most]

This season of Law & Order is/has been shot with the Panavision Genesis.

Yes, that is correct. I neglected to notice the "Law and Order" reference. It should be noted that the Genesis is also capable of undercranking and overcranking, from 1 fps up to 50 fps, recording either on tape or the Panavision digital mag (the SSR-1).

And now that I've re-read the original post, I think the original poster either misunderstood what he was being told regarding film production, or the producer was not explaining it correctly. What the producer was probably referring to was the use of 3 perf format, which uses 25% less film than 4 perf. It still runs at 24fps for sync work, but the frames are only 3 perfs high, not 4, which is why less film is used for the same running time.