Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

[Danny Lingan]

Terry,

Sorry, I goofed and deleted my last post that I was supposed to modify. [But you captured it in your quote.]Brain fart.

You're right. Side module suggests no redesign. I got caught in the conjecture and tripped up.

Edit: [In the land of conjecture, I get 2/3s HDR!]

 

[Steve Wake]

The Delay Could Last Months, Maybe Even A Year.
If getting an affordable Scarlet Fixed soon is more important to you than having HDR and SSD media, I think the soonest we'll see finished cameras is at NAB (Completely my Opinion-- I hope I'm Wrong!)

I guessed a year too. I hope we're both wrong.

If You want SSD and HDR then I'm guessing that could add six to eight months to my NAB timeframe. (The following time estimates are my own guesstimates based on my experience making items of similar complexity- I'm just spit-balling here)

Board design and prototyping (30 - 60 days), Hand assembled test rigs (20 days), Testable pre-production units (30 days), Fully-Enabled Prototypes (Concurrent + 15 days), Tooling (45 days), Factory set-up and Training (60 days), QC Program and testing (30 days) Total Number of Days: 230 days until Factory begins spitting out Shippable units.

Given how similar this is to an existing model and the experience of setting up HDR in Epic, maybe this could be compressed. And of course, the biggest factor regarding a change in release date is where in this process is Scarlet Fixed right now, and has a manufacturer even been found?

This is just my guess of where we stand. I don't know any more than anyone else here outside of Red.

Neither do I, and I don't need anyone to remind me of that. We're just passing the time speculating. No harm, and maybe it will show Red how interested we are in the timeline. We're also trying to goad them into giving another time estimate (with the usual qualification).

All of which begs the question: What, besides 5K at 120fps makes Epic cost more than an S35mm Scarlet?

That extra processing power is no small matter. I'm sure it enables all kinds of features RED has in development. HDR is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Leo Sardello]

And of course, the biggest factor regarding a change in release date is where in this process is Scarlet Fixed right now, and has a manufacturer even been found?

But RED aren’t announcing release dates, so how can they change?

 

[Steve Wake]

But RED aren’t announcing release dates, so how can they change?

Change from what it would have been without HDR.

 

[Nuno Ribeiro]

type as much as we want

type as much as we want

and by chance we get unexpected outcomes.

 

[Leo Sardello]

Change from what it would have been without HDR.

I’m sorry... It’s just that I’m reading all this massive conjecture on delays and I just really have to wonder:

If we don’t know what the release date would’ve been to begin with, what’s the point on speculating how it may change?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I’m sorry... It’s just that I’m reading all this massive conjecture on delays and I just really have to wonder:

If we don’t know what the release date would’ve been to begin with, what’s the point on speculating how it may change?

Bingo!

(Of course, this way no one can ever say we were wrong.) :nonod:

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I’m sorry... It’s just that I’m reading all this massive conjecture on delays and I just really have to wonder:

If we don’t know what the release date would’ve been to begin with, what’s the point on speculating how it may change?

Most people want the camera sooner rather than later, even the ones that voted yes to HDR. When Jim says it could alter the development path to implement HDR in Scarlet- there's no way such a decision won't impact the schedule. Jim requested this thread, so he wants to hear what people think about the added cost of around $1000.

But there are more considerations than just cost- people are concerned about further delays to a camera that was scheduled many months ago. Forego HDR and the camera arrives sooner. Implement HDR and the camera goes back to the drawing board.

This thread is all about conjecture. In the absence of hard facts, educated conjecture can at least give a framework of the issues on the table. This thread, at Jim's request, is the appropriate forum to discuss the implications of Scarlet with HDR. Jim wants feedback before he pulls the trigger.

Jim knows the schedule, we don't. But Jim needs to know what we, the customer, expect from the product. He wants to offer the lowest pricing, but what do we expect to get for it and how many of us are willing to wait for perfection?

The whole idea for Scarlet's inception is to put a Red camera in the hands of many. It was never intended to be the high-end platform, that was Epic. That goal has not changed, but the product has. The danger in delaying the camera and adding features to the development program is not how many customers you are going to lose, its more about giving the competition even more time to develop a response to your product. My guess is they want to hear that Scarlet is still delayed because that will give them a nice holiday sales boost this year.

For the burgeoning filmmaker that has the cash to buy a DSLR or an Scarlet Fixed, the reach of DSLR's into the digital cinema market coupled with a Scarlet delay means that Red potentially loses traction with new filmmakers. These are customers likely to "imprint" their loyalty on the first product they professionally encounter. While that gear has to be well-engineered and designed-- it typically doesn't have to be high-end, just functional and affordable.

Since Jim is the decision maker, as a customer, I want him to consider as many factors as possible to weigh in his decision.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Jeff - your facts may all be correct. However, relating them to the "impacts" is just your own exercise in projection. You may be right on every one of them. But, you may be wrong on any number of them.

I am not arguing for or against the inclusion/exclusion of HDRx™ because, you know what, I think Jim just isn't going to seek my counsel before he decides. (Who knows, maybe he will call you, though.) My guess is that IF your projected impacts ALL turn out to be true, you won't see HDRx™ in the first version of Scarlet. OTOH, if some or all of them turn out to be different that what you suggest, then Jim, et all, just might just decide that it is a good thing.

:beatdeadhorse5:

I have invested a lot of money in Red products. That dead horse will be beaten until my wallet says that its had enough. That should co-incide with receiving my Epic.

 

[David Rasberry]

Don't know why SSD modules and media would cause delays, they are being released before Scarlet.

 

[David Rasberry]

For the burgeoning filmmaker that has the cash to buy a DSLR or an Scarlet Fixed, the reach of DSLR's into the digital cinema market coupled with a Scarlet delay means that Red potentially loses traction with new filmmakers. These are customers likely to "imprint" their loyalty on the first product they professionally encounter. While that gear has to be well-engineered and designed-- it typically doesn't have to be high-end, just functional and affordable.

Since Jim is the decision maker, as a customer, I want him to consider as many factors as possible to weigh in his decision.

Well Scarlet is WAY beyond DSLR market prices already unless you consider it against only the very top of the line models. It is already beyond easy reach of much of the DVXuser crowd IMO.
Scarlet's promise is true high end performance at a relatively modest, but not common consumer, price range. I consider it more an alternative to an S16mm film camera than as a prosumer HD video camera. It is not likely to be a first camera for many. It will be the second or third camera purchase after some practical experience and frustration with lesser cameras leads to a more mature appreciation of its capabilities. Budding pros with enough of a market to justify the investment will be the primary users I think.

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

HDR and/or 150fps is killer for sports/events.
DSLR killer there.
$1000 is worth it to add HDR.

 

[Matthew Marenyi]

I would absolutely shell out an extra 1500 or so for this option.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Would this feature also give higher frame rates? 120fps or so?

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Well Scarlet is WAY beyond DSLR market prices already unless you consider it against only the very top of the line models. It is already beyond easy reach of much of the DVXuser crowd IMO.

The dvxuser crowd has traditionally been a more 5k-10k market in terms of their cameras... At least that is the demographic it was built upon (let's not forget where reduser spawned from initially... and it wasn't a market of people using 800 dollar dslr's). And, that demographic is still out there, and is still quite large, imo... It is just rather segmented at the moment (but, it is beginning to materialize again). Some are still using their hpx170 type cams, or are using it along with dslr's (instead of a 35mm adapter), or are using dslr's exclusively while they've been waiting for something like an af100, for example.

I see two main segments in the dslr market... a pretty much new one that is being served well by dslrs... real low budget folks, first time camera buyers, etc... that spend 1-2k on their camera and are currently more than content. I see that segment of the dslr market surviving and thriving and being served well by the dslr market (and of no concern to the Scarlet market)... The other pretty substantial segment of the dslr market (at least in my perception on dvxuser) are people who were (or still are in addition to dslr's) using hvx, hpx170, ex1, etc.

The coming of the af100 (and I'm sure other similar cameras... i.e. large sensor, or stills sensor optimized for video and put into a video form factor with proper video functionality) is where the latter group will be headed (call 'em the original dvxuser crowd)... the af100 and future cameras like it are the resurgence of that market... Which is the market that I saw Scarlet originally targeting when it was announced a couple of years ago.

a 2/3" scarlet at a similar price point compared to an hvx, ex1, etc was very much anticipated. That market absolutely drooled over Scarlet at that time. Things have changed, though... a 2/3" scarlet at similar price point to an af100 type camera probably isn't as compelling to that market (in a general sense). Even if it offers twice the framerate, better image quality, etc... convenience and full video functionality at a lower (or same) price with a larger sensor could likely be the choice for a lot of those people when compared to a current spec Scarlet.

So, it needs (in my opinion) another big competitive edge at the price point... and 16 stops would probably be a big step in that direction... But, not just that... If I were thinking in marketing terms, I think it needs to be re-emphasized what Scarlet is (b/c I think the perception of Scarlet has gotten a bit skewed and/or misguided during the dslr movement). a no-compromise, absolutely unrivaled 16mm digital cinema system. And, if it can be friendly towards hvx, ex1 users who also use their cameras for more traditional videography work as their day jobs, sensor size begins to be overridden by what Scarlet has to offer folks who lean more towards filmmaking centric work (but still might support themselves with more traditional videography work), which is a pretty good chunk of the sub-10k hvx, ex1, etc type crowd, imo... It is the sub-10k crowd that was buying hvx's, and ex's, etc.

I think there is a very healthy market in the sub10k for Scarlet, but it needs to be heads and shoulders (at a similar price point) above what is coming out now (not that it isn't), not what was out 2 years ago, imo. Not to mention the potential for Scarlet in the 10k+ market as well.

Take your average person in this market segment and offer them the current perception of Scarlet and a 2/3" sensor vs. something with a larger sensor that has video form factor, etc without the side effects of dslr's (assuming)... I have a feeling that many of your average potential purchasers might opt for the larger sensor video cam like an af100 at the price point. And, Scarlet will be targeting a smaller demographic as a result (only those who are pretty full-on committed to digital cinema work, low budget films and stuff). I just think in the upcoming market, Scarlet will need more competitive advantages as a tradeoff for sensor size in order to keep it's market of potential purchasers as large as possible.

For the record, I'm anticipating Scarlet with or without HDR, and it wouldn't make me personally switch over to some other cam if it didn't have it... I'm just trying to envision things from the perspective of the average purchaser in Scarlet's potential demographic(s). I don't think Scarlet should under-estimate the potential sales within the former hvx, ex1, etc market. Currently, I think it's possible that this market could largely fall on the side of af100 type cameras, leaving a much smaller segment of this market to Scarlet than it could have. But, with a reinforced image of what Scarlet is (a 16mm digital cinema hoss that can't be touched in quality, and is video friendly enough to serve more traditional videography purposes), and a bit of extra juice in the form of being able to get 16 stops(!) out of an extremely compact, $6-7k package, I think Scarlet has the potential to bite a lot more out of this particular market segment than it might under current specs when it is released.

I think the dslr market has caused misguided comparisons and perceptions of Scarlet. Scarlet doesn't really need to be looking at that market so much... It needs to be looking at the former hvx, ex1, etc market... which is the soon to be af100, etc market. A market that I believe is quite sizeable, though perhaps under-noticed in the last year or two as dslr's have served as a bridge for a good chunk of that particular market.

On the no for fixed, yes for cinema.... I still think both. the fixed model has it's appeal as well with features like auto-focus, etc. and both models will service different portions of the same above-mentioned market.

All of that said (there I go, being long-winded again)... when images start to drop and cameras get in hands, and people start to see the possible appeal of being able to start with a 6 grand package, and build it into a 20k package if they want, 500, or 1500 at a time, or whatever... when images drop, it will hopefully be apparent just how much better the image quality is over what is available in the sub-10k market. That will catch eyes. More people may start to see just how practical a 16mm'ish format can be for them (as opposed to being viewed as a big red x), and start to notice all the other things that only a Scarlet cam will offer those geared towards digital cinema work. well, then perceptions might change overnight. and hdr or not won't matter. And, Scarlet might be all that and a bag of chips. But, based on current perceptions...

Scarlet has to combat market perceptions as well... not just specs.

I'm no expert... but, i read a lot of forum posts

p.s. HDR added being dependent upon what kind of additional delay would be to be expected. there is a 4995 af100 coming that is firing up the above-mentioned market again. Hopefully Scarlet can hit the streets close to the same time. If it doesn't, it may miss an important window (imo), and it may need something really bad ass to reclaim some of that buzz after the fact.

 

[soren k jensen]

Excellent post Jason, my sentiments exactly. I come from that HVX segment and still use the HPX171's a lot. Excellent camera for SD. So, while I wish for the 2/3 fixed to have HDR because it is going to be extremely usable, I hope that Red can find a way to cater for those that are starting out at DSLR level. For me and others in the same situation, 1000 bucks extra for a 16mm camera with extreme latitude is so very much worth the price.

 

[Robert Jackson]

i am all for 1000 USD HDR on scarlet, no artificial seperation between epic and scarlet, inmho if you can get 3-6 stops more for 1000 dollars, you gotta have to do it.

Heh... "Another six months of R&D and tooling isn't going to seem like such a bad deal when you see the new motion-sensor nanny-cam feature!"

Personally, I don't care if the only feature the camera has is a "Run" switch. I'd just like to be able to buy one. ;-)

 

[Carl Weston]

I'm starting to get the feeling that red doesn't think the current image quality of the 2/3 scarlet is currently as good as they would like it...why else is there no real test footage yet? (Yes I saw the lizard test... not very impressive!..no motion). I think HDR is needed to truly set it apart from the competition. A 6 to 8 month delay just sucks. after sitting on the fence for about a year I'm gonna take a part of my scarlet savings and get a 7D or a Nikon D7000. Until red knows what it's actually going to do i'm gonna get a dslr. I'm just tired of the delays.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

The man from Del Monte he say YES

The man from Del Monte he say YES

:thumbup:

I'm used to paying $8000 for a Sony Prosumer video camera. It's always been around that price.. So I've never felt too anxious about paying more than the original $3K for Scarlet 3K

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

A 6 to 8 month delay just sucks. after sitting on the fence for about a year I'm gonna take a part of my scarlet savings and get a 7D or a Nikon D7000. Until red knows what it's actually going to do i'm gonna get a dslr. I'm just tired of the delays.

I know they don't want to give any estimates, and I understand why.. but no future schedule for the release of Scarlet makes one imagine it might be a year, ten years.. never..:toetap05: