Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

[David Rasberry]

So how many people would prefer to see HDR implemented in second generation Scarlet 2/3" brains if we get the first generation faster and at lower cost?

I must admit to being torn by this question. I definitely want HDR, but I would rather have Scarlet sooner than later. To put it in perspective, moving from an ISO 100 7-8stop DR video camera to an 800 ISO 12-13 stop Scarlet is a huge step up by itself. One that I would be quite happy with for starters.

Maybe the advantages of modularity for upgrading would be the best solution for all. Shoot now ( well soon hopefully :drool5 with gen 1 and upgrade later, or wait for an HDRx™™ version as you see fit.

 

[Ian B. Johnson]

So how many people would prefer to see HDR implemented in second generation Scarlet 2/3" brains if we get the first generation faster and at lower cost?

I must admit to being torn by this question. I definitely want HDR, but I would rather have Scarlet sooner than later. To put it in perspective, moving from an ISO 100 7-8stop DR video camera to an 800 ISO 12-13 stop Scarlet is a huge step up by itself. One that I would be quite happy with for starters.

Maybe the advantages of modularity for upgrading would be the best solution for all. Shoot now ( well soon hopefully :drool5 with gen 1 and upgrade later, or wait for an HDRx™™™ version as you see fit.

This.

Scarlet (as is described in it's most recent iteration) is an amazing camera system. I truly see no reason why it shouldn't be released as is, and development continue on another iteration of the scarlet brain.

Was this not the whole point behind such a modular system?

 

[Brian Harbauer]

Howdy,
I work for a non-profit and money is tight. Personally I was still planning on buying the Scarlet based on the wonderful specs before the surprise extra of HDR was announced for Epic. It seems like if it is announced for Epic, generally people expect it to be a part of Scarlett. The Mysterium X sensor is truly wonderful. Put it up against DSLR or video cameras and there's no question MX is better. I don't want to suffice for something when I really can have something better. However, I also want to be realistic and keep to an understanding why I need Scarlett, what's my purpose for using Scarlett. I don't want have an buffet mentality and have my eyes larger than my stomach. But I understand everyone's needs are different at different price points, which is why I would like to reinforce the HDR MODULE idea.

The HDR module plan would benefit both the users of RED and RED in multiple ways.
For RED, if the camera was released with an upgrade path like the M->MX, there could possibly be confusion as to whether a camera has the HDR upgrade or not.
However, if the Scarlett uses a module, people can then ask for the HDR module when buying. This way it fits the budgets of some and for others who can afford and also would like it, it's simply a module to stick on. Both people get what they want. And those who initially couldn't afford before can add a module without confusion.

If RED decided to wait on the project to add HDR, it may fall outside the budgets of some, perhaps cutting their accessory or lens budget, or may even decide to go DSLR. A delay for release would also delay new cash flow into RED (not that it would be a problem).

A benefit for RED to get the camera out sooner would be the money flow will start coming in and start to pay for the development of the cameras. And people would have the camera to use.

This is all assuming that the Scarlett is built flexible enough to pass the right data to an HDR module.

Again, both types of customers and RED win if RED produced an HDR module for Scarlett.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

...
which is why I would like to reinforce the HDR MODULE idea.

Deanan already shot this down a few pages back -

Can't do it in a module.

Cool idea, just doesn't look to be possible.

 

[Brian Harbauer]

Hey Kevin, thanks. I must have missed that.

Hmmm this should get interesting then.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Let's clear up a few things. Correct me if I'm wrong on these points. Please: I'm not complaining here- Red is accomplishing the impossible. My hat's off to them.

Fact: Scarlet 2/3" Fixed Lens requires a larger brain housing due to the amount of space the lens needs for mounting. Basically it intrudes into the housing too much to accept a standard brain housing.

Fact: Red is said to be currently actively seeking a manufacturing partner to build the Scarlet Fixed in high volumes.

Fact: Red has stated Scarlet Fixed won't be released until a large inventory of finished product is ready to ship.

Fact: Since the announcement of the DSMC modular camera program, nearly two years have elapsed. 12-02-2008, 03:25 PM was the announcement.

Fact: HDR is typically employed to provide Highlight Protection. Since the new class of sensors have a lower noise floor, the current Scarlet specs should give you very good performance under low-light scenarios ( remember the Off_Hollywood footage?). With 13+ stops, the current Scarlet should perform very well in daylight without HDR. The only downside to having no HDR is that in some cases your highlights will blow out (clip or flare) this phenomena occurs naturally in all imaging systems.

I think its important to consider this as these factors will impact the Scarlet HDRx question.

The Impact of Integrating HDRx in Scarlet Fixed:

Further Program Delay:
Why? Because the current Scarlet is not powerful enough to add HDRx and will likely require a new board stack and a body modification.

CF cards will likely need to be abandoned in favor of SSD. See body modification and board stack above.

This will mean two additional systems to integrate: HDRx and I/O.

Certainly A Price Increase:
In addition to the costs of HDRx, add SSD I/O and now more expensive media.

I can't see how they can keep this under $1,000.

The Delay Could Last Months, Maybe Even A Year.
If getting an affordable Scarlet Fixed soon is more important to you than having HDR and SSD media, I think the soonest we'll see finished cameras is at NAB (Completely my Opinion-- I hope I'm Wrong!)

If You want SSD and HDR then I'm guessing that could add six to eight months to my NAB timeframe. (The following time estimates are my own guesstimates based on my experience making items of similar complexity- I'm just spit-balling here)

Board design and prototyping (30 - 60 days), Hand assembled test rigs (20 days), Testable pre-production units (30 days), Fully-Enabled Prototypes (Concurrent + 15 days), Tooling (45 days), Factory set-up and Training (60 days), QC Program and testing (30 days) Total Number of Days: 230 days until Factory begins spitting out Shippable units.

This is just my guess of where we stand. I don't know any more than anyone else here outside of Red.

What I'd like to happen:
Scarlet Fixed is released as is, by the end of this year. Scarlet 2.0 is announced 60 days after the Fixed Scarlet hits the street. Scarlet 2.0 has basic HDR capability and SSD media. Red sells out entire year's inventory of Scarlet 1.0 in 30 days. There are no trade-in programs. Ebay crashes two days after Scarlet 2.0 ships (November 2011). Scarlet retains 60% to 75% of its original retail value on ebay. Scarlet 2.0 costs 150% more.

All of which begs the question: What, besides 5K at 120fps makes Epic cost more than an S35mm Scarlet?

 

[David Rasberry]

All of which begs the question: What, besides 5K at 120fps makes Epic cost more than an S35mm Scarlet?

It is not uncommon in high performance electronic systems for that last 10% worth of high end features to cost 3 times or more the 90% capable version of the same thing. You do reach a point of diminishing returns for large cost increases to get that last little bit of perfection, both on the design and manufacturing side and on the market side.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

It is not uncommon in high performance electronic systems for that last 10% worth of high end features to cost 3 times or more the 90% capable version of the same thing. You do reach a point of diminishing returns for large cost increases to get that last little bit of perfection, both on the design and manufacturing side and on the market side.

That's an excellent argument for doubling Scarlet's price once HDRx is added. Good point.

 

[Cedric Akins]

I would think that just weddings is the one application that really needs HDR. Consider the common high contrast between bride and groom combined with sometimes harsh sunshine, and the reflectors and lights you would need for a usable picture would cost a lot more than $1000.

You are absolutely right. Wedding shoots would benefit from from this greatly. And like I said it would be a huge help in low light situations. Was there something that you disagreed with in my post? My point was that I have set aside 9000 for my camera package. I don't have it in my budget for an extra 1000 to be spent on this new feature, if it will be an additional grand.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

My point was that I have set aside 9000 for my camera package. I don't have it in my budget for an extra 1000 to be spent on this new feature, if it will be an additional grand.

Seems like you might be in real trouble if RED decides (or is forced by business conditions) to bump the price by 10% for any reason. I'd suggest you develop a contingency plan for your approach no matter what, since none of the prices we have been told are guaranteed. hmy:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

So how many people would prefer to see HDR implemented in second generation Scarlet 2/3" brains if we get the first generation faster and at lower cost?

I must admit to being torn by this question. I definitely want HDR, but I would rather have Scarlet sooner than later. To put it in perspective, moving from an ISO 100 7-8stop DR video camera to an 800 ISO 12-13 stop Scarlet is a huge step up by itself. One that I would be quite happy with for starters.

Maybe the advantages of modularity for upgrading would be the best solution for all. Shoot now ( well soon hopefully :drool5 with gen 1 and upgrade later, or wait for an HDRx™ version as you see fit.

David - as usual, I agree with pretty much everything you have said. The one thing that hasn't been made clear is whetherthe addition of any HDR functions will really impact the delivery schedule. Common sense (?) might suggest it would but the truth is, we really don't know what stage Scarlet is at. If it is right at the edge of getting manufactured, then this could set it back a few weeks. On the other hand, if it is still several weeks away anyway, this feature might easily be "slipped" in before it goes to production.

Like you, I want my Scarlet ASAP (this year!!), but who knows what factors are going to determine the delivery date at this point.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Jeff - your facts may all be correct. However, relating them to the "impacts" is just your own exercise in projection. You may be right on every one of them. But, you may be wrong on any number of them.

I am not arguing for or against the inclusion/exclusion of HDRx because, you know what, I think Jim just isn't going to seek my counsel before he decides. (Who knows, maybe he will call you, though.) My guess is that IF your projected impacts ALL turn out to be true, you won't see HDRx in the first version of Scarlet. OTOH, if some or all of them turn out to be different that what you suggest, then Jim, et all, just might just decide that it is a good thing.

:beatdeadhorse5:

 

[Danny Lingan]

Hi, Jeff. I know next to nothing about manufacturing a digital motion camera or anything more sophisticated than an omelette, but you seem to have some insight. I did the boldfacing for the most important bit.

Yesterday, you wrote:

I wonder if, after a search for another high-volume manufacturing partner for Scarlet fixed... putting pressure on Red to raise the price or redesign the product anyway.

...In order to hit the price, Scarlet fixed is facing a component re-alignment and re-design anyway, so another delay is coming no matter what-- then it makes sense to add HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ to it. To value-engineer the existing product could take quite awhile-- my guess is at least four months.

For Jim to even put forth the idea that HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ could be included in Scarlet tells me that Scarlet is not even close to starting its way down the assembly line.

So you say that if there is a delay, it makes sense to add HDR?

Today, you wrote:

If You want SSD and HDR then I'm guessing that could add six to eight months to my NAB timeframe.

Given that in the "Something new" thread in Recon it was said that side SSD capability is going to be added to Scarlet (thus causing a delay according to you), should they go ahead and be sensible and add HDR like you suggest?

 

[Danny Lingan]

I am not arguing for or against the inclusion/exclusion of HDRx™ because, you know what, I think Jim just isn't going to seek my counsel before he decides.

Terry, isn't it kinda cool that he sorta did ask for your counsel by adding to this thread?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry, isn't it kinda cool that he sorta did ask for your counsel by adding to this thread?

Alas, if only it were true... but Jim didn't post anything in this thread.

Here's what he said in the other thread...

The jury is still out on Scarlet and HDR but it just does not have the processing power of an EPIC.

I have to wonder if Scarlet owners would prefer HDR in their cameras if they had to pay extra for it. We could up the processing power by adding boards but that will cost money and I'm not sure if Scarlet buyers will go for it. Some feedback on this would be helpful on another thread in the Scarlet section of reduser. Given the change in development path, board costs, an additional ASIC and "stuff", we are probably looking at an additional $1000 more or less.

If we did this, Scarlet could have both EasyHDR™ at 30fps and HDRx™ to 60fps.

Just thinking out loud here...

Someone want to start a thread there? It should be good for a lively debate.

Jim

Didn't indicate what it would change in term of timing. Did suggest the "development path" would be altered. I wonder if he anticipated all the assumptions that came along with the opinions?

 

[David Rasberry]

Red is watching and reading these threads. Forum input does weigh into feature decisions.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Given that in the "Something new" thread in Recon it was said that side SSD capability is going to be added to Scarlet, thus causing a delay, should they go ahead and be sensible and add HDR like you suggest?

(emphasis added by me)

Where does it say SSD will cause a delay with Scarlet? It will be a new module but I didn't see anything about delay. (and since it is a MODULE, why would it delay delivery of Scarlet?)

 

[Cedric Akins]

Seems like you might be in real trouble if RED decides (or is forced by business conditions) to bump the price by 10% for any reason. I'd suggest you develop a contingency plan for your approach no matter what, since none of the prices we have been told are guaranteed. hmy:

LOL, That includes my contingency plan.:emote_hanged:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Here:



All delays have been hypothetical. It was more about Jeff agreeing there should be HDR if they are redesigning for SDD. They're adding SDD.

I agree with you 100% about the delay and model conjecture. In fact, I'd add who says there will be Scarlet 2.0?

I'll edit my comment for clarity. Thanks.

As you acknowledge, the conjecture about delays because of SSD is just that (conjecture) and doesn't come from RED. Aside from being hypothetical, it just isn't logical. Why would the development of an SSD module - which actually seems to be already complete - have any effect at all on Scarlet? As has been said, there will still be a CF module for Scarlet but the SSD is just an additional recording medium. Since it is a module, and not at all critical to the delivery of Scarlet, it should have absolutely no effect at all. Did I miss something?

 

[Lee Saxon]

It is not uncommon in high performance electronic systems for that last 10% worth of high end features to cost 3 times or more the 90% capable version of the same thing. You do reach a point of diminishing returns for large cost increases to get that last little bit of perfection, both on the design and manufacturing side and on the market side.

I definitely agree with you.

What's interesting is how advances in technology have made that 90%/10% ratio change over the last few years.

I bought a D1x without hesitation because the D100 was flimsy garbage I would have called it as low as 60%/40%. I had a MAJOR hesitation buying the D2x because the D200 was SO CLOSE to good enough. With the current generation I feel like the ratio hit perhaps 98%/2%. Just today I purchased a D700 over a D3s with zero regrets.

Anyway I don't know what my point was because even if it's 99%/1% there are still people that need that 1% and there still needs to be someone to build those cameras. I just like talking I guess

Edit : Oh, I remember. It's that Scarlet users aren't in that 1%. Just release the damn thing, don't make me wait, and pay, for HDR.