The post-DSLR phase starts

[Felix K.]

Not really but would say from what I've seen already that the new Sony NEX-VG10 and Panasonic GH13 (hacked) delivering the same image quality as an Alexa at 1080/24p.

To repeat and say it again just for a fraction of the price.

What about the dynamic range or in other words: amount of F-Stops?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm pretty sure the cameras only output 8 bit, so using a 10 bit codec is just useless waste of disk space. At up to 288 mbits / sec, i'm pretty sure the Nano Flash compression won't be a problem compared to ProRes either - it should be visually pretty indistinguishable from uncompressed. I'm actually pretty sure it's BETTER than ProRes 4:2:2, as A) long GOP codecs are more effective generally B) data rate is not wasted on useless bits and C) it has a higher overall data rate.

Disclaimer: i haven't used or tested either one of the recorders, so take the above just as an educated guess.

Edit: reading a bit more into it, NanoFlash does both I only and Long-GOP.

I don't know if you mean the specific camera linked by the OP here (the NEX camcorder) or consumer/prosumer camcorders.

If you play back from media, you are limited by the codec used for recording... but the live signal (i.e. the HD-SDI signal available during recording or live view of the camera) is 10 bit 4:2:2.

For what its worth, the Sony EX cameras, Canon's HD camcorders, and Panasonic's cameras with HD-SDI output all support 10 bit video via SDI live. Those units that have HD-SDI and HDMI all support HDMI "Deepcolor" (1.3b?) and thus provide 10 bit RGB resolution via HDMI as well. (i.e. Sony EX1R and PMW-350, etc etc.)

There are some HDMI only cameras that output DeepColor, and while they may not really use all 10 bits of signal, they often use more than 8 bit RGB.

Both the Convergent Designs NanoFlash and the AJA KiPro record 10 bit per channel 4:2:2 video.

The NanoFlash does have options to record both I frame and GOP video in MPEG-2. It can record to commodity CF card media.

The KiPro supports ProRes 422, 422HQ and ProRes LT. Its cool feature is that it will do a hardware scale on your footage. The KiPro has a much larger array of inputs... including separate XLR i/o and analog inputs. So, you can pipe in an SD camera's video and have it hardware scaled to 1080p and recorded as ProRes 422 HQ, assuming you thought that was a good idea. Recording the RED One's 720p live output at 1080p can be good for dailies, or perhaps I should say "immediatelies."

I also think the KiPro has better quality. That doesn't matter on many of these cameras, because their image isn't better than what NanoFlash can record- but it may explain Arri's preference for KiPro.

The downside as noted is that the KiPro is much larger and uses more power.

 

[michael zaletel]

I'd buy one (or two).

-michael zaletel

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Not really but would say from what I've seen already that the new Sony NEX-VG10 and Panasonic GH13 (hacked) delivering the same image quality as an Alexa at 1080/24p.

To repeat and say it again just for a fraction of the price.

Uh... NO.

Not even close!

The Alexa is a fantastic camera and the recorded images reflect that. I can't say enough about this camera. If you can't see the difference between this camera and an EX1, NEX or GH13- even with external recorders- then there is something amiss.

(I am assuming that you are looking at "camera footage" in both cases.)

The GH13 and Sony NEX cameras have a lot of flaws for motion pictures and you can see that in their results. I like the Sony EX camera's much better, aside from the limitation of their sensor size. (A good 35mm adapter goes along way in this last detail, although light sensitivity remains a huge issue )

I do think that the new cameras are sort of redefining what we should expect at any given price point. They do produce much better images than their internal codecs can capture- so using an external recorder offers great improvements. Of course then we are looking at ~$3000-$5000 USD cameras. (Including the cost of the external recorder.)

I really think Alexa should be a $20000 USD camera body (compared to Epic at $28000) There are still lots of improvements to be made in digital cameras at all levels.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

Very interesting. My two $1999 questions are if they'll be doing a proper debayer and scaling to get to 1080i and if the i is really interlaced or 30p in a 60i stream. They're not saying either in their specs, which I find odd considering the amount of noise the interwebs have been making about the whole line skipping business.

Looks nice on paper, though.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Very interesting. My two $1999 questions are if they'll be doing a proper debayer and scaling to get to 1080i and if the i is really interlaced or 30p in a 60i stream. They're not saying either in their specs, which I find odd considering the amount of noise the interwebs have been making about the whole line skipping business.

Looks nice on paper, though.

DPreview is saying it's 30p acquisition in a 60i stream. Again...DPreview is saying...

 

[Eki Halkka]

I don't know if you mean the specific camera linked by the OP here (the NEX camcorder) or consumer/prosumer camcorders.

I was thinking consumer / prosumer including the new cam - and i was wrong about the bit depth, it seems. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Emanuel A.]

As camera's life circles shorten, the main investment is shifted towards lenses. With Sony's new camera you would have to start with a new system and start investing in lenses that support:
All Canon, Nikon and PL mount lenses are excluded:

• Sony E-mount
• Sony Alpha lenses, Minolta and Konica Minolta AF lenses via adaptor
(MF only, exclude power zoom lenses/tele-converters)

To make use of the electronic functions of the lenses, you would lock yourself into the Sony E-mount ecosystem.

This camera might make sense if you already have glass that fits the mount, or if you are starting from scratch and have no plans of going the RED/Canon/Nikon route.

Personally, I'd prefer a camera that lets me use existing lenses, and is more flexible.

You are only 50% right ;-) That's why it is actually quite the opposite ('cause of the short FFD

 

[Subhadip Sen]

This sounds like not much more than rumoured Sony NEX-7 in a camcorder body. Will probably be line-skipping 1080p all over again.

 

[Martin Weiss]

You are only 50% right ;-) That's why it is actually quite the opposite ('cause of the short FFD

Thanks. Good to be proven wrong.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Hmm... 1.9K for $1.99K - except there are a few too many minuses:
- No 24p, no high speed, no genlock / syncing for 3D, no RAW.

And a few plusses:
- has gigantic APS-C sensor w probably good low-light, high res viewfinder, it is very compact and pretty, does not look like a weapon or have BOMB written on it

The smart money would be on buying the PAL one for easy 50i -> 25p -> 24p workflow. You could get audio timecode if you fed it the analog timecode signal on one track - Avid can decode this and then auto-sync to your sound devices 702t files or whatever.

I think that the even smarter money is renting and waiting for better stuff that'll come down the line, though! Not just Red, but also Sony's pro line, Pana, Canon... there is going to be so much cool stuff. Big question is if any of them except for Red are willing to do something like 60p or higher, higher resolutions, etc... I doubt it.

Also, the NEX camera series had very aliased video. That German video on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/13323632) looks promising, but there's not enough resolution to really tell.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema..com

 

[Jim Retar]

Sony NEX-VG10 US$1,999.99 + AJA KiPro HDMI recorder US$3,995.00 = Total US$5.994.99 you'll get the image quality that can be equal of ALEXA and also with the highest mobility for a fraction or 10% of ALEXA's price.

I didn't realise the AJA will allow any camera to have a dynamic range of 13.5 stops and perfectly resovled 1080p!

Always good to see people bashing Alexa before they have even tried it.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I didn't realise the AJA will allow any camera to have a dynamic range of 13.5 stops and perfectly resovled 1080p!

Always good to see people bashing Alexa before they have even tried it.

To be fair... calling Alexa's 1080p "perfectly resolved" may be taking it too far. Its still a huge difference in image quality, and I just love that camera.

I'm a proponent of these cheap camera solutions whenever practical... I own and am happy shooting with a 7D after all. The EX1 can produce great images... but its no Alexa. An XDCAM EX PMW-350 with an AJA KiPro will probably upset owners of the HPX-3700 though.

Lets not make these cameras what they aren't. They leave a lot to be desired.

Its exciting times.

I still can't wait for RED to make a play in that market (which is a market priced far below Scarlet S35 5K) I still think a Scarlet S35 3K brain with the same specs and price as the 2/3" 3K Scarlet would make a HUGE impact on the market.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

To say that a camera that records 8-bit 4:2:0 (probably) compressed to 24 Mb/sec is the same quality 1080P as 10-bit 4:4:4 HD (let's say recorded to SR at 440 Mb/sec) out of the Alexa is ridiculous. Even a hacked GH1 doing, what, 50 Mb/sec? is not on the same level. Nonsensical.

 

[Jim Retar]

To be fair... calling Alexa's 1080p "perfectly resolved" may be taking it too far. Its still a huge difference in image quality, and I just love that camera.

I think Alexa will resolve at least as well as a Sony F35, it is downscaling from a 3.5k sensor if I remember correctly. It should be very close to 1.9k resolved horizontal lines (I think F35 resolves 1.6k?)

Either way, it is laughable to compare this Sony with an Alexa. Just like the people who compare a 7D with a Red One.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

To say that a camera that records 8-bit 4:2:0 (probably) compressed to 24 Mb/sec is the same quality 1080P as 10-bit 4:4:4 HD (let's say recorded to SR at 440 Mb/sec) out of the Alexa is ridiculous. Even a hacked GH1 doing, what, 50 Mb/sec? is not on the same level. Nonsensical.

I think you are misunderstanding the argument.

Not that I agree with the argument, but let me restate it for you.

The argument is that these low end cameras, coupled with an external video recorder like the AJA KiPro or Convergent Designs nanoFlash, can match the recorded output of the Alexa.

So, with either option, the external recorder is providing a 4:2:2 10 bit codec with I frames. On the surface that matches what Alexa delivers.

Now I happen to believe that the camera sections of these machines far outstrip the capabilities of their paired recorders- so by pairing them with and external recorder you do improve the total quality of your recorded output.

One set of cameras I have been particularly pleased with when used in this fashion is the various EX cameras from Sony, including the EX1, EX3 and PMW-350. (The PMW-350 is a full size 2/3" CMOS imager ENG camera with specs very much like the EX1 & EX3)

Now the counter argument, and the argument I've been making here, is that the camera sections leave a lot to be desired. Everything from exposure latitude, sensor read out times and the systems ability to render skin tones properly is called into question. Flatly they don't match what Alexa or RED can do for an image.

How best do we break down and discuss the relevant improvements in the camera section proper, without dealing with the recorder section?

It seems to me that we are increasingly entering an area of performance on the low end of cameras where some workarounds can really improve performance.

So... how do we neatly explain that an EX1 is not as good a camera as an F23 or a Genesis, even after we upgrade its recording quality with an external recorder?

This point will become increasingly salient.

What I specifically fear is that the technical differences are more difficult to describe to non-specialists (i.e. producers and new camera operators) and that the images still have serious issues that a non-cinematographer may not see directly- issues that still impinge on workflow and delivery quality.

This is good in the most general sense of course, as it represents the march of technology in a positive sense. The downside is that as the gap closes it may also make arguing the case for better cameras, when they are needed, harder.

What do you think David?

 

[Stephen Strangways]

What worries me is the 14.2 megapixel stills spec.

They can optimize the low-pass filter for 1080p video and deliver very low-res 14.2 megapixel stills, or they can optimize it for those high-res stills and deliver heavily aliased video. So which compromise did they choose?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think Alexa will resolve at least as well as a Sony F35, it is downscaling from a 3.5k sensor if I remember correctly. It should be very close to 1.9k resolved horizontal lines (I think F35 resolves 1.6k?)

Either way, it is laughable to compare this Sony with an Alexa. Just like the people who compare a 7D with a Red One.

Wait... what?

F35 only resolves 1.6k? I thought it resolved closer to 1.9k? You learn something everyday I guess.

In any case, my comment was meant as a sideways swipe at calling the thing perfect, not a swipe at the Alexa. In other words "prefect" is a VERY high standard, let's save the word for when we really mean it.

Moving on the a central point... sure comparing this camera to Alexa is laughable... but it isn't as laughable as comparing a 7D to Alexa or the RED.

Let's just take the 7D, a $1699 camera, and add the following: an improved HDMI output at 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p, the ability to send a clean pre-compression 1080p signal out via HDMI, and the ability to scale the sensor image, as opposed to the current line skipping.

Now record the signal via HDMI with an AJA KiPro, and pipe your audio directly into the KiPro. Add some real cine glass, like a Zeiss LWZ.2 zoom.

Now... comparing THAT to an Alexa is far less laughable.

Those changes don't represent a huge difference in the camera hardware, or the cost of that hardware.

In fact, if you are willing to do away with the internal recording of the image entirely, I bet the current 7D hardware can meet these specs, and possibly exceed them. It may be able to output 10 bit 4:4:4 over HDMI.

Now, I still think that the 7D... even with all those improvements, would be a far cry from an Alexa.

Its a hypothetical- but a hypothetical worth thinking about.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

What worries me is the 14.2 megapixel stills spec.

They can optimize the low-pass filter for 1080p video and deliver very low-res 14.2 megapixel stills, or they can optimize it for those high-res stills and deliver heavily aliased video. So which compromise did they choose?

They may be using the entire 14.2MP sensor image and scaling it before recording.

If they output that over HDMI pre-compression, it gets interesting.

It would be far more interesting if the camera operated at some more frame rate options.

 

[Emanuel A.]

does not look like a weapon or have BOMB written on it

LOL

Cheers,
E.