It's time to STOP bitching!

[jimhare]

I think it is a very clear pattern here. It is the Apple users who are complaining incessantly

I think you're right, but I can't for the life of me understand why. I'm on Mac and the workflow is bulletproof and fast if you have the right gear.

I run all footage through my Red Rocket and them I'm using ProRes4444 from then on. I bring it to 90% of how I want it to look before transcoding and then do my final tweaks on the resulting QTs.

I shoot live shows across up to 7 Reds so I come home with upwards of 10 hours worth of R3Ds. I'm editing Pro Res after a single day of preparation.

It would be the same, or worse, going from SR.

When I'm working on single cam longform stuff I'm editing within an hour.

If I want to go back to the R3Ds I just save an EDL and I'm away. 95% of the time I don't need to .

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone makes it so hard.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I think you're right, but I can't for the life of me understand why. I'm on Mac and the workflow is bulletproof and fast if you have the right gear.

I run all footage through my Red Rocket and them I'm using ProRes4444 from then on. I bring it to 90% of how I want it to look before transcoding and then do my final tweaks on the resulting QTs.

I shoot live shows across up to 7 Reds so I come home with upwards of 10 hours worth of R3Ds. I'm editing Pro Res after a single day of preparation.

It would be the same, or worse, going from SR.

When I'm working on single cam longform stuff I'm editing within an hour.

If I want to go back to the R3Ds I just save an EDL and I'm away. 95% of the time I don't need to .

Honestly, I don't understand why everyone makes it so hard.

There are several issues people may find with your workflow.

1) It requires a specialized hardware that costs $5k.
2) You are throwing away at least half your resolution by converting to ProRes (unless there's a ProRes 4K version I am not aware of).
3) ProRes 4444 is not a lossless codec. There is always some, however minute, quality loss.
4) There is still the intermediate ProRes files. It takes a lot of time to convert (if you don't have Red Rocket) and takes up a hell of a lot of space.

Personally, I feel your workflow is just fine. It can be further enhanced by the superior Cineform 4K codec - in terms of resolution, speed and compression.

But people still want to edit by pulling files from the CF card straight into NLEs with the latest color science and FLUT, editing in real-time. That is simply not possible on Apple workflows. However, using a, say EX1, this is a genuine possibility, even on Final Cut. Hence, the EX1 has a superior workflow than RED, that is the logic, I assume.

Of course, they are oblivious to the fact that such a workflow is possible for R3Ds on Adobe, Sony or Avid software as well.

This still doesn't solve the problem of people who need the footage IMMEDIATELY after the shoot. That would require a proxy module.

 

[Eki Halkka]

EX-1 is not exactly a fast camera, it takes a very long time to import the footage into FCP and the tool to do that with is pretty weak.

Is that really EX1's fault?

I edit in Vegas, and i can bring in the EX1 camera originals to timeline without any specific "import" step - just like with Red. Drag, drop, edit... It looks to me that quite often ppl are making Final Cut -oriented problems seem like camera oriented problems.

 

[David Battistella]

OK.

People can bash FCP all they want but they were the first to support 4K RED natively in an NLE app. AVID got around to it last month and Adobe a few months ago.

I am not going to blame the "workflow" questions on specific NLE's, but I would suggest that there are far more people "dabbling" in post with no clear understanding of how to use any workflow other than copying P2 and editing or digitizing a DV tape and editing it.

RED has made many tools available and are now positioned well to use one tool and put their resources into the one tool.

No one knows if another version of FCP will ever come, but I suspect users will be licking there chops if it ever arrives.

David

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Good points David.

Fun thing is FCS have worked and works as the tool for delivering RED high-end productions in large environments where you cannot simply "switch to XXX", as FCS is a part of a larger in-house workflow where AVID and PP don't fit in with the rest of the multi million $$$ solution that have been chosen...

Workflows are end to end tested solutions that work.

There are many such solutions out there, and posting RED material is definitely not the most expensive of the options.

But one have to test, calibrate, choose and stick to your choices for the entire production to be able to get consistent results.

Then test the next thing for the next production.

 

[David Battistella]

But one have to test, calibrate, choose and stick to your choices for the entire production to be able to get consistent results.

Then test the next thing for the next production.

Exactly. And this is a great time to thank you for contributing all of the tests you have done to this larger community to help eliminate the FUD around RED workflow.

I could jsut hear these folks bithching about FILM.

"What? you have to load the camera? and I can only shoot for 11 minutes?"
"I have to wait until at least tomorrow to see what I filmed?"
"What's an answer print?"
"What is s splicer? I have to tape two pieces of film together to make an edit?"
"What is this "timing pass" thing anyway?"




David

 

[Stephen Williams]

From the first experience with RED i never thought it was going to be a "fast turnaround machine" just as film is not this way.

Hi David,

Historically film had a very fast turnround & was used for News until 25 years ago. Ektachrome took about 20 minutes to process, however the developer could be run hotter with a 12 minute turnround when needed.

 

[Santiago Marti]

OK.

People can bash FCP all they want but they were the first to support 4K RED natively in an NLE app. AVID got around to it last month and Adobe a few months ago.


David

Adobe supports r3d since cs4, it is not a new feature. With cs5 came mercury playback engine, 64bit optimization, and now 10 bit output with the right video card through display port. It's not that we bash FCP, as a red owner i get tired of FCP oriented post houses bashing the red one, talking with clients, etc...

My post house switched to CS5 and never looked back. Of course we are a red oriented post house, so the choice was clear.

 

[David Birdy]

Santiago,

I've been thinking of going with CS5.

What type of machine & configuration do you use?

How well does the real-time R3D transcode/debayer work?

Dave

 

[Anson Fogel]

Rocket is simply required for fast turn

Rocket is simply required for fast turn

I too am a bit surprised of late by the workflow woes, having once shared them, and now, having it dialed in.

First, if you work in situations where you have to deliver footage FAST, a rocket/mobile rocket are simply required - just imagine the camera costs 5 grand more. In the scheme of day rate deltas its pretty trivial. If the production cannot or you cannot afford one, then you shoot EX/5d/Sony ENG, etc - and give up the myriad advantages of red even when moving up front to 1920 Prores. In most cities you can rent a mobile rocket if you can't buy one.

Second, a workflow where you move to ProRes 1920 up front still retains clear quality advantages over other baked-in HD formats. The ability as Jim says to re-connect to R3d's in grading if desired, the massive oversampling up front, and the one light grade done during initial transcode amongst others. I hear people ask for a ProRes module, but then I hear people say that's not good enough, instead, RED should make RAW work perfectly and quickly in every prosumer application. Ummm....

Third, I truly don't experience much difference in challenges these days whether posting EX, 900, Varicam, 7D or Red. We deal a lot with EX, 7D and REd especially, and we deal with gamma, colorspace, and other challenges in post with every format. Right now, we often shoot with our R1 even when the client did not pay for it, just to have a smoother workflow vs. 7D or EX - EX being for us about the same time wise, but much faster than 7D. I sure don't miss injesting tape anymore either.

Finally, RED is a professional camera system - and requires professional post production. Just like film or other high end capture systems. I have to explain this almost every day to friends and other non pros who talk about buying a Scarlet, etc - the same people who are surprised when they realize our R1 does not have auto focus, motorized zoom or easy onboard audio. I'm sure Red will provide some prosumer friendly feature like H264 proxies or the like, but we're shooting an a professional system, and clearly, shooting and taking advantage of RAW by definition means more sophisticated tools and processes in post. Why wouldn't it?

Like Jim, we use a "get into ProRes fast" workflow most of the time, and it works wonderfully. In some cases, after editing online in 1920 444 PR, we'll re-connect with the R3d's in Color or a pro colorist's baselight, and we get the best of all worlds. We DO edit mostly in FCS, and mostly as of today it just works. We learn how to deal with gamma issues like we learn how to deal with the challenges of other quirks and workflows with 7D, EX and others.

Seems like education is key. It was for us.

 

[Phil Bates]

Just for the record, I am a happy Apple guy. But then, I am using CS4/5, not FCP. AE's batch renderer is what makes the process work for me. I admit I am not working under fast time pressures, though.

I can easily color grad a 4K image while viewing at 25% and refresh speeds are fast enough to scrub through a clip. However, if I make the viewer to 33% things slow down dramatically.

P

 

[David Battistella]

Hi David,

Historically film had a very fast turnround & was used for News until 25 years ago. Ektachrome took about 20 minutes to process, however the developer could be run hotter with a 12 minute turnround when needed.

Point taken.

RedRocket would do this.

The bigger problem now is shoting ratio's and the "tape is cheap" "digital is cheap mentality" which is why i like the CF cards.

David

 

[David Battistella]

Adobe supports r3d since cs4, it is not a new feature. With cs5 came mercury playback engine, 64bit optimization, and now 10 bit output with the right video card through display port. It's not that we bash FCP, as a red owner i get tired of FCP oriented post houses bashing the red one, talking with clients, etc...

My post house switched to CS5 and never looked back. Of course we are a red oriented post house, so the choice was clear.

Good for you!

David

 

[Eki Halkka]

People can bash FCP all they want but they were the first to support 4K RED natively in an NLE app. AVID got around to it last month and Adobe a few months ago.

Vegas has it too, since over an year ago.

Anyway, i didn't in any way mean to bash FCP. I replied to the specific claim that EX1 is a slow camera to work with, which is not true, and pointed out that it's not the camera's fault if the FCP workflow is slow. In my opinion, my comment was a neutral observation, at least that's the way i meant it to be.

 

[David Battistella]

Vegas has it too, since over an year ago.

Anyway, i didn't in any way mean to bash FCP. I replied to the specific claim that EX1 is a slow camera to work with, which is not true, and pointed out that it's not the camera's fault if the FCP workflow is slow. In my opinion, my comment was a neutral observation, at least that's the way i meant it to be.

Eki,

It was not pointed at you. I have found the EX-1 camera to be lightweight, easy to use, but I have also found that interfacing a SONY product with FCP a bit cumbersome and slow.

I can appreciate that it would work perfectly with Vegas, A SONY product.

Sony makes excellent reliable products, it really is a plugin interface problem with the XD-CAM interface plugin.

David

 

[Ian Laurie]

If I have to go direct to edit with a short turnaround to air... RED is useless. The render time is murder.

Buy a Rocket Card. Hire someone to use it while you shoot. Use CF cards. when you only have one CF card to transfer at the end of the day and you have a rocket card to do it with, surely your client can wait the 10 minutes for it to be finished.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I am not going to blame the "workflow" questions on specific NLE's, but I would suggest that there are far more people "dabbling" in post with no clear understanding of how to use any workflow other than copying P2 and editing or digitizing a DV tape and editing it.

You're hitting the nail directly on the head there... Maybe a bit too directly.

 

[Santiago Marti]

Santiago,

I've been thinking of going with CS5.

What type of machine & configuration do you use?

How well does the real-time R3D transcode/debayer work?

Dave

David, i use a dual quad machine, not the i7 xeons, the model before those, 16 gigs of ram, a tyan mobo with 16 ram slots, quadro cx, 5 teras in a raid 5 configuration, dreamcolor monitor and dell ultrasharp, 950W power supply and thermaltake case. It is not an expensive setup. I am planning to get the 6 core xeons, also a red rocket, adobe support is around the corner.
I edit natively and then export edl or 2K dpx from the timeline. performance is great, you can even pull clean keys in reatime.

Using 5.0.2 patch in premiere the debayer looks incredible at 10 bits at half res-full debayer with 32 bit color processing enabled.

 

[srinik]

Can someone let me know what is the minimum possible workable system with the R1 (obviously not including Red rocket), and if there is no urgency to submit to any client.

1) R1 camera
2)
3)

 

[shashbugu]

Get a Red Rocket Card, work real time stop biatching. If you want to shoot Red and Want to post Red, get a Red Rocket card. Simple as that. its a small investment for a very profitable images.