RED Workflow Rant

[bobbystone]

I'm an avid Red Fanboy, and a fairly early adopter. I've been amazed at the success of RED and the new direction of our craft, but there's one area that I feel RED is surprisingly behind on and that's workflow. And to get down to it, a camera is only as good as it's ability to get implemented into a finished piece.

Right now, there are 3 color sciences, a myriad of different apps and workflows,and not one is complete all the way through the post process. When I shoot footage on my RED it looks one way on set, another when I open the proxies, another when I open footage in clipfinder, and still another when I render pro-res movies.. Yesterday I brought a drive home of footage I'd been working on and it looked astonishingly different on my home mac using the same tools and versions of software I used at work.

Guys, this is one of the reasons people are suddenly so enamored of the 5D. Despite it's deficiencies, there's something wonderful about being able to pull footage straight off the CF card, and start editing with footage that looks something like it did on set without having to go through a bunch of hoops.

There's a lot of promise in all of the various directions, but please. FINISH ONE! Just ONE that works all the way through. I don't' really care if it's clipfinder and REDLINE or REDCINE-X, but please give me a simpler, faster more consistent way to get my footage on the screen.

If I have a simple quick job to do, I find myself grabbing the 5D more than my RED these days, and I htink that's truly a shame. I urge RED and others, to get focused on workflow.

Any while I'm ranting let me add one more thing.. I don't want a cine camera for taking stills. I want the best cine camera I can get!

I'm sure there are many opinions out there on this subject, this is mine. I'd love to hear more on the subject.

Bobby

 

[HD Hildebrand]

I'm sorry, but I have to agree here. People are moving away from Red for this exact reason. Post-flow, although very laborious, was more productive a year ago. Today, it's just as laborious but I'm having the same problems. We need a solution.

And sure, it's easy to flame posts like this, but right now, that is the least of my concern. I've invested a lot of time and money on this camera. I like working with it, but it also needs to work with me.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Give Adobe CS5 a try .

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Sorta think things have become better, but it's a problem that the "legacy" tools were left dead before the new ones were ready.

RocketcineX 1740 is a workhorse, though...

 

[Tim Morten]

Yesterday I brought a drive home of footage I'd been working on and it looked astonishingly different on my home mac using the same tools and versions of software I used at work.

This part of your post confused me a bit: are you saying that there's something non-deterministic about the way footage is played back in the same version of the software? The only explanation for that which I can think of would be having monitors calibrated differently. Obviously, it doesn't matter what you're shooting on if that's the case.

It's too bad that Graeme didn't invent the new color science on day one... but can I fault Red for that? Do I wish they had stuck with the original color science? Nay to both. If you want on-going innovation, you have to be prepared for on-going software revision. If you don't want on-going innovation, stick with Build 15, and the myriad of associated workflows.

If you DO want innovation, I hear great things about both CS5 and MC5. I had a very good experience with CS4 and MC4, with the obvious caveat of having to transcode to take advantage of the latest color science. That caveat goes away with the latest versions.

Shoot, and if desired, apply a look on-set. Copy footage to edit machine. Open CS5 or MC5. Edit. That's about as clean as it gets, IMO. If things aren't matching up for you, I'd suggest a pass on calibrating your monitors to a common standard.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Eki Halkka]

Give Adobe CS5 a try .

Or Sony Vegas Pro 9.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Perhaps, it is your workflow that is the issue here, and not the R3Ds. As has been mentioned, the likes of Adobe CS5 or Sony Vegas Pro 9.0e allow you to edit footage straight off your CF card, even on mainstream computers.

Many of us love RED because of RAW. At the same time, it does seem like RAW is being an issue for some. No surprise either that most of these people are still tied to the Apple workflow. Surely, RED is listening and there will be a slew of proxy modules following the H.264 one. The H.264 module will at the very least bring it up to the level of the 5D workflow and I trust RED's implementation of H.264 to be superior than the DSLRs.

By the way, the 5D codec is awful. It runs slower than 4K .R3Ds on Vegas Pro 9 at least. I hear most prefer to transcode to an intermediate format like ProRes before editing. So, it is actually a lot more cumbersome than the RED CS5/Vegas workflow.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I'm an avid Red Fanboy, and a fairly early adopter. I've been amazed at the success of RED and the new direction of our craft, but there's one area that I feel RED is surprisingly behind on and that's workflow ...

Guys, this is one of the reasons people are suddenly so enamored of the 5D. Despite it's deficiencies, there's something wonderful about being able to pull footage straight off the CF card, and start editing with footage that looks something like it did on set without having to go through a bunch of hoops.

First of all make sure you are using these:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=617915

Second of all, some of what you may be experiencing may be part of the gamma bug in Quicktime, which is not a Red thing but an Apple thing.

Third and finally, I do find it interesting that Red's workflow is getting critiqued, and the 5D is not. The 5D workflow is not as easy as it first appears- especially if double system sound is involved. Sure apps can be bought to simplify the process, but I still think it is impressive that Red provides all of these apps for free. I personally think that the only reason the 5D workflow is considered "easy / simple" is because of the in roads that Red has already made. I'm not sure we would be putting up with the 5D workflow as much as we are if Red had not already blazed the trail.

But with that said, I do think the bigger problem is keeping track of who has what color science implemented, and who is up to date and who is not. It is frustrating trying to keep track of all of the various 3rd party apps and where they are in the implementation process. Which is why the thread I linked to above is very handy- at least I can get easy access to the latest Red apps along with Apple & Adobe.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There are a multitude of workflow options and possibilities out there. I help people with RED workflow every day and I often start out by having them show me what they are doing to start with. In most situations everyone is overcomplicating it or trying to hang on to legacy software or they are trying to transition color spaces, etc.. One of the worst things anyone can do with RED post workflow is to try and force RED footage through an existing or preferred workflow that they may have for other formats like HDCAM, DVCPROHD, etc.. Keep in mind that this is a "WORK FLOW" -- that implies that multiple tools and transitionary process will transpire to reach your final goal.

I can't claim that RED workflow (any of the multiple possibilities of such) are close to perfect. Far from it. But I think where the real fault lies is not as much with the tools, but with the flow of information from RED and third-parties in terms of workflow training or the spread of knowledge on how to handle RED footage in post with RED tools and tools from other vendors.

So many people are trying to force RED footage into their desired workflow and then claiming that the workflow is crap. From that perspective, I suppose they are correct... The proper perspective is not that RED should fit your workflow, but rather your workflow should be malleable enough to accommodate RED.

Right now, there are 3 color sciences, a myriad of different apps and workflows,and not one is complete all the way through the post process.

You should only concern yourself with the latest color science model, unless you have very specific needs to use anything prior. There are a multitude of workflows and application options. RED is not in control of any of them, other than their own tools. Too many third-party variables for most workflows.

When I shoot footage on my RED it looks one way on set, another when I open the proxies, another when I open footage in clipfinder, and still another when I render pro-res movies..

What you see on the camera is one thing and your perception of it varies depending on lighting conditions when viewing, etc... We can't color-calibrate the RED EVF or LCDs. It's an informational thing, you're not trying to achieve a WYSIWYG model here. I often find I'm explaining this a lot to new operators. 99% of the time I'm viewing what I shoot in RAW view anyway, which is always flat/washed out. Of course, this can be difficult when working with directors/producers who watch a feed and are primarily from an HD background where they think they need to see exactly what they're going to get on the directors' monitor. Let them review clips or get occasional glimpses in REDColor or whatever. But I usually tell them to relax and all is good. After all, they hired me and/or whoever is DP or operator to shoot this. If they think they know better, maybe they should be the one running the camera?

Yesterday I brought a drive home of footage I'd been working on and it looked astonishingly different on my home mac using the same tools and versions of software I used at work.

That sounds like a color management issue to me. Differently calibrated monitoring systems, viewing conditions, etc..

Guys, this is one of the reasons people are suddenly so enamored of the 5D. Despite it's deficiencies, there's something wonderful about being able to pull footage straight off the CF card, and start editing with footage that looks something like it did on set without having to go through a bunch of hoops.

...And these people who prefer this, in my experience, have little to no experience shooting and finishing RAW stills or shooting motion with film. Otherwise go back to what I said above about on-set directors and producers who think they need WYSIWYG feedback. Of course, with the 5D, you're basically acquiring in a consumer-grade distribution format and very little changes from that point forward. Of course it's going to match up well in post.

There's a lot of promise in all of the various directions, but please. FINISH ONE! Just ONE that works all the way through. I don't' really care if it's clipfinder and REDLINE or REDCINE-X, but please give me a simpler, faster more consistent way to get my footage on the screen.

Who are you talking to? RED is responsible for their own tools. They are partially responsible for what is available for Apple software, but still rely on Apple for much of it. Adobe, Avid, Clipfinder and everyone else is on their own... They all use the same SDK, but each have their own ideas on how to treat and manage color. There is little to no consistency across applications in the RAW stills world, now here we are shooting motion RAW and the tools are a lot newer.

If I have a simple quick job to do, I find myself grabbing the 5D more than my RED these days, and I htink that's truly a shame. I urge RED and others, to get focused on workflow.

To each their own, I guess. Personally I don't feel that way. I grab the RED every time unless its physical size and manageability are detrimental or even impossible for the project. Then I'll reluctantly go for the 7D or 5D, wishing I already had my Epic. I expose and shoot with the RAW view and build 30 exposure tool. For the quickest turn-around, I one-light and transcode in Redcine-X to ProRes 4x4 at full 4K resolution. I drop the full 4K right into FCS and go to town. I finish in Color. I know exactly what I'm going to get and it's the same every time. Yes, there is gamma compression when transcoding to ProRes. Welcome to Quicktime hell. This is not a problem unique to RED, it's an Apple issue, deal with it, it's the same every time -- how you deal with it is up to you, but it's entirely manageable.

Workflow #2 I will skip the one-light in REDCINE-X and won't transcode. I'll just drop the R3D's right into the bin in Premiere CS5. The problem here is finishing. Color Finesse is nowhere near as powerful as Color and AE is so dog-slow with RED footage it makes me want to cry. AE needs Rocket support yesterday!

Workflow #3 I may cut with the camera proxies, but prefer to transcode via RCX to ProRes proxy format or even 1080p ProRes and cut with that in FCP. Then I take my XML and finish in SpeedGrade, linking to the original R3Ds.

Workflows #2 and #3 will become a lot more interesting in the near future with the low-cost DaVinci Resolve software.

I'm also demoing Avid MC5 and liking it a lot too. Personally, I will be dumping Final Cut Studio altogether if Apple doesn't come out with something Amazing here in the next couple months. I'm > . < this close to buying MC5 and sticking with that and Adobe. To tell it like it is, the only reason I'm still using FCS at all is for Apple Color because my only other option is SpeedGrade and I have to share ownership and time in that coloring room, which is a 20 minute drive away. Adobe and Avid paired with a Mac Pro running Resolve is going to kick some serious ass.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Adobe and Avid paired with a Mac Pro running Resolve is going to kick some serious ass.

I've been looking at Resolve as a Color replacement too. I'm only waiting to see what the system requirements are when the new Mac Pro's come out, and hopefully the new GPU's to go along with them....

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've been looking at Resolve as a Color replacement too. I'm only waiting to see what the system requirements are when the new Mac Pro's come out, and hopefully the new GPU's to go along with them....

I'm thinking the same thing here. Right now it's really a wait and see game.

 

[bobbystone]

The crux..

The crux..

The crux of my angst is that , although there are several promising directions.. Everything seems to be in a perpetual state of "beta" 2 years in its time to get into some stable, workable workflow. CS5 sounds interesting, but when a huge percentage of users are in teh FCP family, something there ought to work. Maybe that's Apple's fault. At the very least, I ought to have a consistent, reliable way to look at footage and know what I'm seeing..

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I kinda feel the same way...
I feel like in order for me to get a good looking picture i have to go through 3-4 different programs and a bunch of steps.. and i always forget them per project (i dont do post too often.. just my personal projects)

 

[Elsie N]

You should only concern yourself with the latest color science model, unless you have very specific needs to use anything prior. There are a multitude of workflows and application options. RED is not in control of any of them, other than their own tools. Too many third-party variables for most workflows.

This is key, I think. Stay current. Things are happening so quickly now, and in no small part to the coming of RED, that we simply cannot get comfortable in today's tech or we'll be left behind, tomorrow.

In re: the latest color science model, I recently opened the latest REDCINE X build and saw some footage I took in the very first days of owning an R-1. It was so blown out that I could not recognize it from the thumbnail. I opened it in Redcine, chose Redcolor and Redgamma and picked a spot for white balance, lowered the exposure and voila!... a perfect image. In another one with background sky blown out and cat on a fence facing me in dark contrast, I did the above but also raised the shadow control. Now cat and sky live harmoniously in the same footage.

I hope to never shoot anything other than raw again, as I do my own post work.

And if the REDCINE guys are reading... thanks for what you do. Everytime I open this app I think of how great your work has evolved and how much you keep getting it righter.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

redcinex is def progressing in the right direction

 

[Richard Foster]

Ref BobbyStone's comment "Any while I'm ranting let me add one more thing.. I don't want a cine camera for taking stills. I want the best cine camera I can get! " I agree. having started with still photography 40 years ago the ergonomics of a Nikon are what's right for shooting stills, and the features especially including an optical viewfinder and handling comfort and speed of moving around for framing make Nikons (or Canons or Leicas) the choice for stills. But I similarly applaud RED making every effort to make the best digital cine camera they can. The ergonomics and style of this are well thought out on the RED.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

CS5 sounds interesting, but when a huge percentage of users are in teh FCP family, something there ought to work. Maybe that's Apple's fault. At the very least, I ought to have a consistent, reliable way to look at footage and know what I'm seeing..

Workflow within Apple's tool set is an issue with Apple. I feel the same way when it comes to a Final Cut Studio pipeline. But I can not afford to let my work suffer or let any tools dictate limitations in my work. And I think this is something that must be considered and is more important as we progress forward. I have not been able to rely on any one single software tool set for the past few years. Whether we shoot RED or something else, the market is evolving too quickly. Keeping ourselves in a nimble state where we can easily move from FCS to Avid to Adobe, etc.. is a key ability right now. I have been platform and post suite agnostic for the past few years and I find it far too restrictive, for my own work and for handling my clients' needs, to simply be in the FCP family or just in the Adobe family or whatever. Half the battle in determining a proper workflow for RED is finding what works for you.

I use the QT camera proxies for preview only, never bother with them while editing or in post if I don't have to. They don't work on Windows anyway and 2/3 of my systems are Windows boxes. For many projects I've shot, I had proxy generation turned off just to save the extra clutter. They don't take up any space, but not having them there just saves lines on the display and eliminates some client confusion amongst Windows people that can't view them. There are times I wish the QT proxy thing had never been created for RED footage. I know that might seem very odd, but think about it for a minute.... They only work on Macs. REDCINE and RED Alert were available to transcode right from the start. Vendors like Apple probably would have moved to support proper L&T earlier if there was no ability to just drop a QT proxy into the timeline.

If Scarlet were about to ship in the next few weeks (let's just imagine this for a minute), I would recommend Sony Vegas for all Windows people looking for a low cost way to edit what they shoot and one complete start to finish toolset. It's fairly inexpensive, it handles R3Ds natively and very well. Color and gamma are consistent throughout the pipeline. It supports the latest color science. Great Blu-Ray authoring, BorisFX for titles and graphics, etc...

...I don't use Clipfinder.

...I don't use R3D Data Manager, I have my own methods and utilities for verifying data and ensuring data integrity.

 

[Michael Cioni]

Workflow

Workflow

A large part of what I do for a living is design, modify, and implement workflows for projects - both studios and independents. And while many of the good points brought up in this thread contain validity, I consistently observe a lack of understanding of RED that is letting people down - not the RED itself.

Workflows are fickle. I don't even like that term, "workflow." They are like cars of a train - some have a dozen, some have a hundred. They move and change, and require constant modification. In fact, in working on hundreds of RED projects, it's extremely rare for my team to implement the exact same workflow twice. I kind of think of it like cracking an electronic safe:
When you find a number that works, you leave it. But concurrently you're trying out new numbers...one after the other...until you find another that works. When you hit a number that doesn't work, you make a note, and make a change.
As each component of a workflow falls into place, make a note as to the impact and evaluate its pros and cons. Use this combination as long as you can...that is until you come across a new safe requiring a new combination...

The second largest part of what I do for a living is educate (which I enjoy). For many people reading this thread, I ask that you take a serious look at attending REDucation this coming August. REDucation is not a week in which you will spend money reviewing what you already know. I promise (former REDucation attendees, please chime in REDucation touches each and every one of the issues brought up in this thread, discusses them, demonstrates them, and solves them.

Answer me this: If I were to publish some of the workflows I've implemented on shows, (such as outlines, budgets, or flowcharts) would you find any benefit to reading them? For example, the comment about RED having 3 color sciences - in professional film and video, there are way more than 3 ways to interpret colors. I would die if I only had to worry about 3 ways to debayer So if I were to publish how we manage RED projects amidst the issues that have been brought up here, would that help? What if I posted some of the key workflow points we're doing on Pirates 4, or Social Network, would anyone find that useful for the community?
(maybe there is some offline REDucation we can do here on RU???)
m

 

[J. Eric Camp]

On RU or over coffee, I would love to hear how your are skinning the Pirates and/or Social cat.

 

[Grant Goss]

I use the latest PC motherboards and OS.
I use the latest, in Adobe CS5.
I use the latest firmware for the Red Rocket card, and BOB.
I use the latest drivers for the Quadro FX 4800 card.

No problems going out to dvd etc.....
Just my two cents
I'm thinking Reducation is starting to pay to pay off.
Using the caboose theory.

Good day eh!