Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED - DSLRs and where the market is heading.

According to the hacker "tester 13" the Gh1 "isn't line skipping the sensor".
As in "never was", hence the quality of the improvements/hack.
 
It doesn't really matter either way because no matter how the sensor is read (other than our idle curiosity), it's rather full of artifacts.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
It doesn't really matter either way because no matter how the sensor is read (other than our idle curiosity), it's rather full of artifacts.

Graeme
Click to expand...

I think it is clear from the zone plate you posted earlier that there are some rather ugly artifacts in the vanilla GH1.

But, what if these artifacts were compression oriented, at least to some extent? Potentially, the image could be far stronger with tester13's patch. I am sure it is, but how much so? Does it approach "true 1080p"? Yes, we really do need a zone plate comparison.
 
Looking at the image, there could indeed be some softening due to compression, butthe finest detail in the image is still significantly below 1080p, so no, I don't think you could call it "true 1080p".

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Looking at the image, there could indeed be some softening due to compression, butthe finest detail in the image is still significantly below 1080p, so no, I don't think you could call it "true 1080p".

Graeme
Click to expand...

If the GH1 sensor was never line-skipping, shouldn't we observe much higher resolution in your zone plate? And none of those line-skipping-like banding and artifacts? I don't know, something doesn't quite fit.
 
Who knows what tricks and shortcuts they're using. They're obviously using some as the chart shows.

Graeme
 
Again, for what it's worth, the hacker says now it "shows zero artifacts".
Zero, Hmm, that's an awfully big number. Anyway, as far as the big picture goes, the camera is hobbled in so many other ways.
And just wait till Scarlet starts shaking her hips.

Edit. Sorry: "zero compression artifacts"
 
i think the reason the gh1 does not line skip is because it has a 12 MP sensor

the canon 7d has an 18 mp and 5d mark ii has a 21 mp sensor

(all approx.)


the less mp the less read/reset time

so no line skipping



do i have this right ??



sorry, about getting the fixed price wrong. Thank you for the correction terry.
 
However, it does show stronger aliasing and chroma moire vertically than horizontally, and it also shows horizontal artifacts that look to be from upsampling vertically. That would indicate that more short-cuts are done vertically than horizontally.

Graeme
 
David Rasberry said:
The difference in power consumption gives a good indication of the difference in processing power needed. DSLR's consume around 10 watts, 3-chip video cams run 12-15 watts. Epic reportedly draws about 60 watts.
Click to expand...

Isn't that too simplistic of an analysis. AFAIK power consumption could be drastically affected by the level of processing being done/how sophisticated their DIGIC ASICs are - not to mention what size the traces are on the chip (forgetting the technical terminology right now but for example as Intel processors go to a smaller process the distances that the electrons have to travel gets less so requires less energy heat even for the same level of processing).

BTW is the 60 watts power consumption a pretty accurate figure for Epic? If so that's a little disappointing, I thought the ASICs were going to drastically reduce power consumption - like 75 percent or so. I think 60 watts is still even more than my old D3 camcorder from the early 90s - which was a power hog and the second most power hungry camera I ever owned (R1 was number one). Did RED backtrack on the level of ASIC integration on the Epic?
 
The GH1 firmware is awesome indeed and it sort of helps show the strengths of DSLRs in general. After reading some of the initial posts about losing jobs to DSLR cameras and some even having to use those cameras instead of their RED Ones is simply restating the main issue with the RED One camera and the RAW workflow itself. Most people opt to simply take a picture in JPEG and be done with it. In filmmaking, people would have preferred the same but that option simply wasn't available. Everything has had to be processed in some way to get final results, regardless of effects or looks. Well, now that DSLR cameras have HD video and are relatively inexpensive, people don't have to shell out for the big lighting packages or lens sets, they can simply go to a Best Buy, get the camera, the stock zoom, and film. It's a statement that has been made before for video cameras but wasn't really true. We've always needed extra light for a scene, we've always needed some sort of additional lens, we've always had to spend time to work around the heft of our camera equipment and we've always needed fancy post tools and equipment to fix up our images afterwards. With RED, let's face it, you need all of those things, you simply can't just take it and film. With a DSLR you can simply crank up the ISO if the scene is too dark, move the camera in a second, and film away. Yeah, you may not have as much control over the image in the end but you get the strengths of HD (WYSIWYG, near accurate colors by default, etc.) with all of the visual strengths of 35mm (DOF, lens options, etc.) and you can edit it on the fly and post it up on the net within a few minutes.

The question that has yet to be determined is if a Scarlet or an Epic could have satisfied any of the requirements of the season finale of "House" and whether they can really offer filmmakers what the DSLR range offers, which as we all know already it simply can't. RED lacks immediacy. For all of their resolution and high end practically uncompressed formats, they still face the one hurdle that can't be met by anything they're making, the ability to simply take the camera out, film, edit, and distribute. To even begin to get at the footage in the editing room, you have to process it, color correct it, and then begin to simply edit it before sending it off to be treated with looks and whatnot. For the fast "Youtube, Vimeo, internet distribution in general" crowd working in the field and within the industry, they don't have time to deal with all the hassles of working with a RED camera. Now, there are productions that of course take their time and do big films, like "Pirates of the Carribean 4" but I'm talking about indies and smaller productions that are opting for the DSLRs right now. That whole segment has dropped off for RED simply because they don't have the money or time to work with it and I'm beginning to think that the Scarlet's impact will be hurt badly simply because of this as it will follow the same RAW workflow (as far as we know at this point). This is a challenge for RED and they will have to meet it eventually, especially once DSLRs start getting full 1080p HDMI output.

I believe it was mentioned a long while back that RED should develop a look system, something along a "zeroed out" general look, just something to allow people to not mess with the RAW nature of the camera, just a generic "JPEG-like" option rather than having to select RAW all the time. So far the only thing that comes remotely close is the use of a Nanoflash unit through HDMI or HD-SDI for immediate 35mm-looking 1080p HD which, in my opinion, is just a waste of a good 4K camera.
 
Leo Ticheli said:
I just lost my first job to "that" DSLR and not on the basis of price. The client wanted the 5d, probably because it was cool. My bid was actually lower than the wining 5d bid!
Click to expand...

I shot 2 weeks with a 7D while my RED sat in the car the whole time.

RED's getting hit from both ends right now. If they don't beat Alexa than anyone who's not price sensitive (Hollywood) will be shooting that.

Somehow Canon has pulled this thing off where people are actually requesting them over RED for stuff. I've heard it so many times I know it's real.

For anyone to poo poo the HDSLR impact is just stupid. There's no way this is just a "fad". I think these cameras became what a lot of people wanted Scarlet to be. Small and 35mm - end of story.
 
Joel Kaye said:
I shot 2 weeks with a 7D while my RED sat in the car the whole time.

RED's getting hit from both ends right now. If they don't beat Alexa than anyone who's not price sensitive (Hollywood) will be shooting that.

Somehow Canon has pulled this thing off where people are actually requesting them over RED for stuff. I've heard it so many times I know it's real.

For anyone to poo poo the HDSLR impact is just stupid. There's no way this is just a "fad". I think these cameras became what a lot of people wanted Scarlet to be. Small and 35mm - end of story.
Click to expand...

I think your points are all valid. A lot of professionals are basing their opinion on what they parade as the ultimate test - "the big screen test". Now, these are 35mm prints, whose resolution is somewhere between 1.2K and 1.5K. Extremely soft on a big screen, to say the least. RED's resolution advantage is of little significance here. Even the HDSLRs, shot in good conditions, and close-ups, hold up well against film. That's about enough to convince a lot of directors. We saw how impressed the audience were in the Zacuta test. Yet, there wasn't a single wide shot, or a moving shot isn't there. The audience opinion's were drawn from what they saw, and they saw images from a HDSLR that looked as good as film, or even better. And this is what is blowing them away. Near 35mm quality for under $5K!!!!%$%#$!

There will be people who will blow it up, test it against difficult conditions, shoot zone plates, test for grading, chroma noise, aliasing, etc. But for many, the pleasing images on the big screen (shallow dof included), combined with the price, is enough. These DSLRs are eating into every camera out there - Red One, Alexa, 35mm, EX1, whatever is out there. Whether it's a fad or not, I don't know, but it is clear that the public is embracing DSLRs for video at this moment.

Red has to make sure that the Epic looks better than the Alexa at 2K, first and foremost. I firmly believe in the future-proofing, but it is clear most don't care about such a thing.
 
With the next gen NLE's supporting native raw editing, most of the work flow issues will become moot.
Shooting raw will still require more skill and discipline to get best results than shooting encoded video and it will require more powerful computers.
I don't think anyone thought the DSLR's were as good as film on the Zacuto tests, they obviously weren't even in the online video. But they did look film like within their limits. There were negative comments about grading issues and a general observation that shooting raw would be a big step up.
DSLR's are a godsend for film students and no budget indies. They will be the tool of choice for photo journalists and still photographers for whom video is a secondary discipline.
For commercial work with significant budgets they are perhaps a fad, and fads by definition change. What won't change is the wholesale market shift toward 35mm format acquisition now that it is available at low cost.
Epic and Scarlet will have most of the advantages of size and portability the DLSR's offer with far better image quality. Epic can't quite satisfy the low cost side of the equation, but S35 Scarlet will. The huge difference in image quality and production flexibility will likely earn it the next fad camera spot at a price that is close enough to a fully outfitted DSLR kit to be competitive for day rates.
Alexa is a 3.5K camera, even though it outputs 2k to fit current industry work flows. What RED does in first stage post the Alexa does in camera. It looks like Epic and Scarlet will have similar in camera full quality scaling capability too for more convenient HD work flow, so they should be competitive there too.
2/3" will still be a viable and popular format, especially for production styles that require run and gun shooting demanding light weight compact fast zoom lenses.
I just got home from InfoComm, the AV industry trade show. There were two major trends in digital display for markets ranging from event staging, to digital signage, to medical imaging: 3D and higher than HD/2k resolution presentation. I can see 2/3" Scarlet having a possible niche in the medical imaging market for high resolution documentation and education for instance. Its modularity, compact form factor and optics would make it a good operation theater robotic camera.
Another possible market for the 2/3" is in 3d immersive simulation imaging where the shallow DOF of 35mm would be liability.
This forum tends to be entertainment and narrative drama centric, a very small part of the overall production market. There are many other markets where the smaller format will be the preferred choice.
 
Just remember a bit of the 3.5k is un-recordable "look-around" area though. They do 3:2 scaling, so 2k comes from a 3k source, and 1080p from a 2.8k source.

Graeme
 
Michael Hastings said:
Isn't that too simplistic of an analysis. AFAIK power consumption could be drastically affected by the level of processing being done/how sophisticated their DIGIC ASICs are - not to mention what size the traces are on the ship (forgetting the technical terminology right now but for example as Intel processors go to a smaller process the distances that the electrons have to travel gets less so requires less energy heat even for the same level of processing).

BTW is the 60 watts power consumption a pretty accurate figure for Epic? Epic?
Click to expand...

The 60 watt figure is listed on the Epic spec sheet. Actually is says ">60 watts" since power consumption will scale with things like frame rate.
There is a direct linear relationship between data rates and power consumption/heat loads in DSP devices. One of the major issues we addressed in seminars at InfoComm this year was the massive increase in heat loads and power consumption generated by the move to HD teleconference codecs and other DSP intensive display and audio processors.

An example of the difference in approximate data rates for the 5d2 vs Red:

Epic 5k @ 24fps = 326 mega pixels per second
Epic 5k @ 100fps = 1360 mp/s
Epic 2k @ 250fps = 589 mp/s
Scarlet 3k @ 24fps= 117.6 mp/s
Scarlet 3k @ 120fps = 588mp/s

5d2 21mp raw @ 3.7fps = 77.7mp/s
5d2 1080p @ 30fps = 64 mp/s

I think the actual power consumption for a 5d2 is in the 7watt range.
So the difference in power consumption and heat loads is directly related.
 
One market that commercial RED DOP's should be looking at closely is the digital signage market. This market will drive higher than HD acquisition demand before the theatrical/broadcast/entertainment markets do. There were multiple demonstrations of 10 megapixel and up signage displays and video walls meant for walk up close distance viewing at InfoComm.
 
I think it is important to note that when some say the DSLRs are being chosen over RED cameras, even when the price is bid lower than the DSLR... the person pitching the DSLR may be the tipping factor. Obviously the salesperson is an important part of the decision when the customer is un-initiated.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top