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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED - DSLRs and where the market is heading.

shashbugu said:
The funny thing about students these days they want to learn with little cameras pro sumer cameras.

Film schools especially universities should have the most expensive and advanced equipment, or else the current wave of half baked poorly digested aesthetic film skills will ruin the art form.

A student trained on an HVX200 can't even compare themselves to one trained on an Aaton LTR or Xtr, An Arri II, etc.
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Not sure I agree -- I learned mostly by shooting on Super-8 cameras and graduated to old 16mm cameras in film school (Eclair NPR and the Arri-S). I think any camera that allows basic manual controls over exposure is a good learning tool, the point isn't to make super high-end images that compete with pros, the point is to learn by shooting as often as possible, which means it has to be as affordable as possible.

I don't think the camera itself is much of the issue as long as it has the basic manual controls necessary to learn how to use f-stop & shutter, etc. effectively and creatively.

But if the point is to learn how to use equipment, not just the general concepts of cinematography, directing, editing, etc. then you want equipment that has a lot of the menu features that pro cameras use so a student gets the basics again about setting gain, shutter speed, different gamma tables (if digital), etc.

Again, it's not necessary to have the latest and greatest of gear in order to teach this stuff.

Also, you can argue that most students after they graduate will be working with the lower-end stuff for awhile anyway, so they might as well learn to get good at dealing with less-than-state-of-the-art equipment.
 
shashbugu said:
The funny thing about students these days they want to learn with little cameras pro sumer cameras.

Film schools especially universities should have the most expensive and advanced equipment, or else the current wave of half baked poorly digested aesthetic film skills will ruin the art form.

A student trained on an HVX200 can't even compare themselves to one trained on an Aaton LTR or Xtr, An Arri II, etc.
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Doesn't it really depend on what the student wants/expects from film school as well as what the stated mission of a particular school might be? If the objective is to refine the art of storytelling, then using lower budget equipment but using the hell out of it on as many projects as possible will do that. Or, if the main point is to learn the workflow of film and video production, then the cost and quality of the equipment and the images is not completely the point. In that case, however, you would want to stay true to a more accurate process by which the film gets made.

If, on the other hand, the intent is to get trained to work on a Hollywood set, then using only the newest high end equipment might make sense since mastering that equipment would be important to starting off as a crew member on a big project. To me, it all depends on what the objectives are. I am not a film school grad but it just seems logical.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Doesn't it really depend on what the student wants/expects from film school as well as what the stated mission of a particular school might be?
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David Mullen ASC said:
Again, it's not necessary to have the latest and greatest of gear in order to teach this stuff.

Also, you can argue that most students after they graduate will be working with the lower-end stuff for awhile anyway, so they might as well learn to get good at dealing with less-than-state-of-the-art equipment.
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Both points very well taken. Its just that I feel Schools today at the university level are really skimping out on the students. I meet lots of young aspiring filmmakers/ individuals who are great at After effects, but don't even know what a split diopter is, or can guage focus with a tape measure.
I can't really make my point because it is relative and subjective. I just feel students deserve more, from freshman to senior year. They seem to only learn once they get into graduate school.
I must admit that film syntagma has changed, due to the prevalence of handheld immediacy.
 
shashbugu said:
I can't really make my point because it is relative and subjective. I just feel like students deserve more, from freshman to senior year.
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I agree in the sense that when I went to private grad school, tuition was $9000/year... now students are paying over $30,000/year for the same experience -- for that amount of money, I'd expect more too!
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I agree in the sense that when I went to private grad school, tuition was $9000/year... now students are paying over $30,000/year for the same experience -- for that amount of money, I'd expect more too!
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$30,000?! I could buy a RED One for that price and finance my own low-budget feature in a year or two!
It'd have to be a pretty damn convincing school if they ever asked me to fork out that kind of cash. Then again, I never set my sights on any school that costs more than a few thousand dollars at most so maybe I am not just "the type" ... :emote_popcorn:
 
It doesn't matter what Nikon or Canon do next. It doesn't matter what features RED adds to Scarlet. No matter what RED does, when they do finally release Scarlet to the public, demand will outstrip supply for some time to come. Mr. Jarred has built an "Apple" or "Oakley" type brand in RED. Quality and Performance meets Price and Panache. Jim only need concern himself with the challenges of mass-manufacturing, distribution, quality-control and customer service. The remainder of the battle has already been won.

-michael zaletel
 
Erik Franzén said:
$30,000?! I could buy a RED One for that price and finance my own low-budget feature in a year or two!
It'd have to be a pretty damn convincing school if they ever asked me to fork out that kind of cash. Then again, I never set my sights on any school that costs more than a few thousand dollars at most so maybe I am not just "the type" ... :emote_popcorn:
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Well, I hope you don't have children who might want to go to a private college or university in the US. :yikes: The annual tuition for a whole lot of them is comfortably north of that figure. And many of those don't even offer film courses!! :huh:
 
the 5DmII is an awesome camera, form factor is fantastic. Yeah frame rates aren't great and compression is bad but for what it does, it does great.

I can see how its impacting the rental market for sure, they are great cameras.

Would I buy an EPIC instead of a 5DmII, yes it if was available.
Would I buy a 5DmII over a Scarlet... if they where both available... well it all depends on price and functions (frame rates, compression and lens mounts)

Are RED threatened by HDSLR's... I don't think so, I think rental companies are but RED are not... maybe they will loose a few sales from people needing cameras now and not being able to purchase again when Scarlet is out.

What is the point of this discussion... I think it just highlights just how cool the 5DmII really is and how Canon's next camera will be even cooler.

I love RED but its a tool first and foremost, just like Canon... maybe we'll look back in years to come and see all those photos of people with super large camera setups and think... what were they thinking... kind of like when you have to have a VHS recorder connected to your VHS camcorder :-)

Small is a good thing.
 
Rodney weirdly did not metion Red+Mx, just Alexa.

I am also beginning to understand something. For some peopel, resolution is important, artistically, for some people no or much less so. I have extremely sharp vision, I see the world aroudn me as having lots of detail, maybe that's why I fidn Betacams so awful and the Red so awesome.
 
reality

reality

I spoke with Gale Tattersall yesterday when they were prepping for House.
For the first time he saw his (DSLR) footage projected on 40' screen during Cine Gear last weekend. He said it looked fine. Now he's convinced he can shoot anything with it and make it work. BTW he's a hard core film guy-all primary is ARRICAMS for House:yesnod:
 
I love how the site automatically renames certain Japanese camera makes when you post...
Cheers,
Harry
 
As a Red mx camera owner(and Epic when its shipped)/Steadicam Camera man I had a interesting job last week. Everything on set was the same, circus trucks ect. But the camera that was being used was the Cannon's. So I but a iron plate that I use for my practice camera under the Cannon and they had Still Zeiss lens with gear straps. I even had Iris pulls with my Scrpio follow focus " Click Click"
The lighting was soft but I want to know what this Image will look like on a large screen it looked ok on my green Steadicam monitor.
My Mom saw me on Entertainment tonight last week and called me and said the cameras are smaller!!
Cliff
 
If you can't beat them, join them.

I just lost my first job to "that" DSLR and not on the basis of price. The client wanted the 5d, probably because it was cool. My bid was actually lower than the wining 5d bid!

We all know the Red can beat the socks off any DSLR on almost any metric except physical size, but I'm buying one. Probably should have done so a lot earlier.

The body is so cheap, I'll regard it as "film stock," and upgrade it every time Company C issues a significant improvement, which will probably be every year or so.

Now I'll probably be submitting three bids; Red, VariCam, and 5d. Of course I would almost always prefer to shoot Red, but I'd rather shoot with a lesser camera than stay home!

Could be that this DSLR craze is just a passing fad, but I don't think so, and it would be foolish to imagine that Canon, Nikon, et al, will just sit back and not keep improving. This market for them is huge; every still photographer can earn extra income or at least keep competitive, by offering video along with stills.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Rob Ruffo said:
...

I am also beginning to understand something. For some peopel, resolution is important, artistically, for some people no or much less so. I have extremely sharp vision, I see the world aroudn me as having lots of detail...
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Something of a philosophical question... how does one actually know if one's vision is sharper than someone else since the experience is completely subjective and can't be shared? Kind of like how different is the red color you see vs. the red color I see? :huh:
 
Leo Ticheli said:
If you can't beat them, join them.

I just lost my first job to "that" DSLR and not on the basis of price. The client wanted the 5d, probably because it was cool. My bid was actually lower than the wining 5d bid!
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I have a DP friend who just took a 5D job, he quoted them the same price for RED and they wanted 5D (he has several for other purposes). When he tried to talk them out of the 5D and into the RED, they said they wanted the 5D and "you're not instilling confidence in us".

Meaning he almost talked himself OUT of the job.

Unfortunately, clients want what they want and it can be difficult and dangerous to try to talk them into a different direction.
 
Michael, we have had similar conversations with our client. Clients are becoming increasing articulate about the service requested. In past days, resolution alone was easy sale, but there has been a quick and seismic shift in perceptions.
 
Producers shouldn't be dictating what camera system is used outside of budgetary constraints.

Cinematographers need to play a more active role in contemporary preproduction planning in order to use the right system for the job.

Right now it's all hype - more for less.

Under any scrutiny (I.e.) not web video the dslrs look like crap - when compared to Red. Compared to an hvx or a ex-1? I prefer the DSLR.

Dslr is the new DV.
Red is the new Film.
 
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