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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ALEXA vs RED thread in Creative Cow

End of June for most people.

If they went to the trouble of feeding a codec that is 4444 RGB then I would venture a guess that they aren't feeding it "crap". It's 10-bit and not a monitoring path.

But, you are correct. It's all speculation.

David
 
I suppose there's no point asking what the downsampling from the 2880x1620 to 1920x1080 looks like then, either?

Albert
 
I'm doing no rentals, I write, direct and produce films. As an ex-DP my view on things regarding filmmaking is pretty camera centric but production reality always brings me down to what actually is meaningful for us.

We purchased a RedOne 2 1/2 years ago which turned out to be a good investment. The purchase of the RedOne made it possible to upgrade projects that we normally would have shot on HDCAM. But the investment also forced us to shoot on our Red although the job would have been typically been shot on 35mm (commercials). I must admit that 35mm is still the better format for commercials. An investment has always downsides.

With Alexa around the corner and Epic not too far away I hold my breath and wait how the landscape will develop. That's the reason why I opt for stage 3. For a production company like mine investments into postproduction are currently more meaningful. We invested into Autodesk Smoke which seems to be as revolutionary as the RedOne was. A great tool for the filmmaker!

On the camera side I happily wait. There are pixel counters (the Red approach) the defenders of 1080p (Arri) and stereoscopic filmmaking is already reality on the big screen. Is 4K the future? Will 1080p stay for the next two decades (that's what I currently think) or will be Stereo-HD the big thing apart from its use in cinemas? IBC in Autumn, at least the next NAB, will show us the direction. By then Alexa has shot quite a few big movies, tons of commercials and we know what it can do, how the ProRes on board recording will fit into postproduction and how EPIC will stand in the market. We will probably know how 2 2/3 Scarlets work together for steroscopic filmmaking and what the competition has to offer in this regard.

Meanwhile I'm thinking of upgrading my RedOne, or saving the money for some eyecandy (Genarts for Smoke) or doing nothing and wait. The RedOne with the new colour science is making very nice pictures, it's just not very fast. I can live with that the next year or so.

As a rental house, of course, I would upgrade and opt for Stage 2 - and have secretly signed already a contract for 1 or 2 Alexas.


Hans
 
Well As mitch said I think every camera have it's application & let be realistic guys,Epic is a nice camera & All of us know what it's capable of do but Alexa from Arri do have sexi color rendition Nice white clipping and cinematic look.
 
With DRX (not available on the RedRocket....) RED clips really nice.

Colors can be nice from all.

Sanjin. These images tells us exactly nothing, but they're fine... -:)
 
Two great, fantastic, new tools! But don't kid yourself, EPIC has very little to do with competition against ALEXA for now (at the very least until the ProRes module comes out...then we can talk ;)).
EPIC is aiming to supersede film in every aspect possible so far for a Digital Cinema Camera, while ALEXA is aiming for the broadcast industry (and Arri being more than happy to let the EPIC fight it out against the real competitor at this point; 35mm).

Eventually, and naturally, EPIC will meet ALEXA in the same playing field. The only question at this point will be if studios are willing to deal with the workflow (even if they provide a module, since then the justification will be "But they didn't have one before! So we still shoot ALEXA..." or somesuch).
 
Esmaile said:
Well As mitch said I think every camera have it's application & let be realistic guys,Epic is a nice camera & All of us know what it's capable of do but Alexa from Arri do have sexi color rendition Nice white clipping and cinematic look.
Click to expand...

What are you basing that on? The five minutes of sample footage put out so far? Or just their marketing material?
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
You don't need ProRes module today with RED1.

Just connect HD-SDI (also can be a pretty long BNC cable) to AJA HD-SDI to HDMI converter and then to your MacPro desktop with BM Intensity Pro card and with it you can directly feed FCP with ProRes 422 or capture your footage at ProRes 422 in FCP.

Another solution is AJA KiPro ProRes recorder that also accepts both HD-SDI and HDMI.

Matrox MXO is one mobile solution that can be connected with AJA HD-SDI to HDMI converter...

Then I did long ago HD-SDI to AJA Kona 3 recording but don't remember now exactly how it worked but will do it soon because my MX RED is already in custom office in Vienna back from upgrade in California.

There are probably many other solutions to get ProRes from R1 directly and also wireless using Gefen stuff...

Stay tuned.
Click to expand...

Sanjin, There are always "work around" solutions. But this is exactly what keeps many clients away from Red One is the need to do gymnastics before editing (I know its easy....).

What our customers want to do is walk away with a drive and plug it into there computers and edit. They don't want to spend the extra time to transcode, or plug into on-set devises, etc.... even if its easy to do. Many "would be" users wont even try.

Red has proven that there are many customers willing and happy to go through a trasncoding step for a higher-end ability to manipulate and control images in the best way possible. But the other reality is many more (dare I say... most) producers in this industry dont need or want an extra step and are quite happy with an editable, (baked in) 1080p file based material to be able to quickly and easily edit. Costs is always an issue, time is money, etc. A better quality end product doesn't always justify the costs (money and time) and in today's market the budgets keep getting slimmer. Most material shot today is going to televison and more everyday to the web. Digital Cinema is the smallest part of the market slice.

Question is, Does Red want to sell to just the elite, "Hi-end" Media Producers, or offer options to everyone else as well.

Whats the downside to having a Pro-Res module option?

I think they have to go in this direction to stay viable. With DSLR's, etc (and whatever the next thing coming), having these kinds of options on Red products are all apart of the "modularity" necessary to be competitive today, and that's what Red is all about (or so I thought anyway). Do you really believe offering a "baked in" codec isn't fair game for Red?

Particularly with the Scarlet, the ability to sell to the masses (not just the elite), will require an easy "no brainer" work-flow option. I say "option" because we all understand that Raw recording is the best way, but the "best" way isn't for everybody or every shoot. Id rather have 2 camera's that really can do it all (Epic and Scarlet), if possible.

Having a module system to be able to switch to Pro-Res or some other codec IS exactly the kind of forward thinking that should make the RED products the best cameras available for years to come. But if they try and keep the record options to just Raw recording, there will only be a particular slice of the market willing to jump through the hoops required.

Alexa is pressing the issue, and perfect timing for Red to respond appropriately to this shot across the bow. I believe without a Pro-Res option in Epic, then Alexa will take a larger slice of "Digital Cinema" market. With a Pro-Res module option for Epic and Scarlet, it's a "game changer" throughout the different strata of the camera market place.

One guys opinion anyway.

best, ER
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
As a rental house, of course, I would upgrade and opt for Stage 2 - and have secretly signed already a contract for 1 or 2 Alexas.
Click to expand...

Why would you have to do it in secret? Why could you not plan to offer both?
 
Mitch Gross said:
Why would you have to do it in secret? Why could you not plan to offer both?
Click to expand...

No you don't have to, of course. I'm not doing rentals, on the contrary I'm a regular customer in the rental business.

But it's a known fact that rental companies don't tell their competition what they will purchase in the upcoming future. They always try to be the first with the coolest toys. Abel Cine seems to me one of leading forces in this game.

I know at least one rental house in my area (Cologne, Germany) that will receive their first Alexa pretty soon. They also rent out RedOnes and have them upgraded already or will soon, independently of the Alexa.

Red and Arri will coexist and find their place.

Hans
 
I still think that red need a module.

sdi > fcp is ok.

but edit with those? how ya gonna match back to the raws?

More metadata with a module.

unless I'm missing something?

beside if you really want prores asap just hook in a AJA KiPro

s
 
Alexa has to really worry about Canon, Sony, Panasonic way more than Red has to worry about Alexa.

Canon, Sony and Pansonic will come out with the next generation cameras that do better HD.

I feel sorry for all the guys buying Alexas. The ROI timeframe will be very short and they'll attacked by 5k cameras from above and cheap HD cameras at the bottom end.
 
Maz Mawlawi said:
Well we also have to see how much ALEXA will be rented for....the camera is much more expensive and for "fast and cheap TV commercials" it still maybe cheaper to go the RED/EPIC way...but certainly an affordable and portable ProRes or CINEFORM module would be a welcome addition to the RED/EPIC cameras. :-)
Click to expand...

Hi,

I was having a conversation with someone who has ordered an Alexa, he told me a compeditor of his with 4 Reds plans to rent Alexa for the same price as R1.

Stephen
 
Mitch Gross said:
Never understood why it has to be X versus Y for people, or "I'm in this camp."

I like cameras. I like lenses. I like tripods, follow focuses, matteboxes, tungsten lights, HMIs, jib arms, Steadicams, etc., etc. For one job I may prefer X and for the next Y. To choose just one is to limit myself, and frankly I'd rather be an artistic slut and really sleep around. Whatever works best for me for a given job, that's the best tool for that job. And let me tell you, there will never be a single tool that always best fits the bill.
Click to expand...

You slut!! LOL
 
I don't understand why people are so caught up with the RT prores from alexa... yes, its nice. BUT

If you are dealing with clients that come from film waiting for edit media is the tradition and if you really need your media at the end of the day, an on set rocket setup will deliver it. Sanjin has some great workarounds and RED will have an answer. Would you rather have your edit material the same day or more flexibility when it comes to your image. No contest.
 
Yes, but RedRocket is real-time, right? So unless you are converting all day long, having three hours of 4K material at the end of the day (for example) to convert to HD is not going to qualify as "immediate". And you'll also be backing up that 4K material all day long too, so it's not easy to squeeze conversion time into the process so that it's all done by wrap -- especially if when you wrap, you hand the data manager another 30 minutes of footage to back-up and transcode.

There's no question of course that it's better technically to work with RAW files in post, I think people are just saying that there are clients who don't want to wait for any transcoding, nor play for a RedRocket. The RAW workflow is a superior way of doing things, but some clients don't want superior, they want fast and convenient and cheap.

Also, the notion of using the monitor-out to record to a Pro-Res module or something similar is basically flawed because the live-out is only 720P and the debayering quality is not the best it could be - we all have seen aliasing and mosquito noise problems with the live 720P Red monitor image that is not there in playback.
 
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