Good enough...

[Tim H.]

I started 3D in 1997. I know my way around a 3D app.

It's not about the Lights. It's about the look. Having a truck full of lights no more makes you a cinematographer than having a 3D app. It's all about the end result. Lighting a 3D face is the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLES as lighting a real face. Setting up a camera is the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLES as setting up a physical camera. You set your lens. You set your focus. You set your shutter speed. You lay out 'track'. You hit record.

At the end of the day it's just about intensity, focus, color and direction. With GI becoming economical thanks to point cloud based GI solutions in Renderman and hardware raytracing solutions just about to come online you could even setup flags and bounce cards just like on set if you really felt like it.

Cinematography is Lighting and Composition. Are you saying shots rendered on a computer were neither lit nor composed? It's like saying something shot on RED doesn't deserve an academy award because it was shot digitally. It's idiotic and insulting to the creative vision of the DP.

I bet I could bring David Mullen over to a computer. Show him how to setup a cg light. Give him a scene and he could apply his craft just as well as in the real-world with a day or two of practice. Or at the very least have him direct a TD like he would a gaffer or grip to achieve his desired vision. If cinematographers can't apply their creativity and vision to digital lighting then the technology needs to improve.

Cinematography is Cinematography regardless of the tools employed. Many cinematographers admire painters and other artists because despite using oil paints and canvas they have similar creative goals.

Which is also why I feel like RED is selling itself short. It's a fantastic tool regardless of the resolution it's capturing. Why denigrate your own tool as only quality because of some esoteric statistic. If RED was 8k and had 4 noisy stops of dynamic range my interest in it would be pretty close to 0.

This is a better place to have this discussion: http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=44877&hl=avatar best cinematography&st=0

 

[Harry Clark]

Some of you are missing the point -- I did a TV series in 1080P 4:2:2 and I wasn't allowed to shoot Log mode because the production wanted to only make straight dubs for editorial, no Log to Rec 709 step despite the fact that it would only add a few bucks to the cost of post and give me another two stops of dynamic range to work with in the final color-correction.

So with that mentality, how do you convince them to shoot 4K RAW and spend the time & money doing conversions in post to 1080P, even if it's very little time & money?

It's not a question of passing the image purity test here, we are just acknowledging that some TV productions want broadcast-ready 1080P material right out of the camera, they don't even want to wait for a real-time RED Rocket™ conversion in post and they certainly don't want to pay for it if anyone is charging.

Thank you David. That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[chrislancaster]

i dont care if its good enough .. ive been dreaming(literally) for two days now of shooting an EPIC which is very odd because ive been kicked in the nards financially and have no idea of how i am going to buy one ...

:idea:

REDfinance???

 

[Lee Saxon]

I started 3D in 1997...[snip]

Totally agree with you man, I was just saying that to some people a few hours ago.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Back to Jim's original point.

Thousands of 4K projectors are being installed in movie theaters around the globe as we speak, including massive investments from Cinemark and AMC in the States. We all know that film is on its way out the door. It's only a matter of time. So... which digital cinema cameras will be capable of shooting for a 4K RGB finish and projection?

Think of it this way. In the next couple of years, all films will likely get a 4K digital finish. Many will get 4K projection at theaters. Now, once you have seen 4K at the theater, you are going to want to see 4K at home as well. Once 4K display (computer LCDs for 4K gaming, 4K projectors and LCDs for living rooms, etc), then there will obviously be demand for 4K television. It will probably start with "Planet Earth" style content in 4K. If it was not for the severe delays in Epic X, I myself would currently be finishing my own "Planet Earth" style film in 4k. Once these films and programs exist in 4K, everyone is going to want to SEE them in 4K.

Why watch "Planet Earth II" in 1080p when you can watch it in dazzling 4K??

The chain will go like this:

4K projection at theaters.
4K LCDs for gaming and 4K movies at home
4K broadcast TV for homes

 

[Shawn Booth]

I thought Red killed Film?

uh, no. Film is living quite well.

 

[Chris Parker]

well shawn, film still does have a heartbeat to be sure, but living well? not so much.

definitely in it's golden years, kicking back, winding things down, getting ready for retirement.

 

[Chris Parker]

maybe has 10 years left in any mainstream production environment. at most.

 

[Brad Olsen]

Back to Jim's original point.

Thousands of 4K projectors are being installed in movie theaters around the globe as we speak, including massive investments from Cinemark and AMC in the States. We all know that film is on its way out the door. It's only a matter of time. So... which digital cinema cameras will be capable of shooting for a 4K RGB finish and projection?

Think of it this way. In the next couple of years, all films will likely get a 4K digital finish. Many will get 4K projection at theaters. Now, once you have seen 4K at the theater, you are going to want to see 4K at home as well. Once 4K display (computer LCDs for 4K gaming, 4K projectors and LCDs for living rooms, etc), then there will obviously be demand for 4K television. It will probably start with "Planet Earth" style content in 4K. If it was not for the severe delays in Epic X, I myself would currently be finishing my own "Planet Earth" style film in 4k. Once these films and programs exist in 4K, everyone is going to want to SEE them in 4K.

The chain will go like this:

4K projection at theaters.
4K LCDs for gaming and 4K movies at home
4K broadcast TV for homes

I sorta disagree...

The switch from film to digital projection has been slow and painful. Asking cinemas to upgrade again so soon... especially when 2k and 3k already look so good? unlikely. Not saying there won't be 4k cinemas, just asking what's the incentive for all of them to switch when most people watching can't tell the difference and don't care?

A lot of people use LCDs and other displays that aren't even 1920x1080 currently on their home computers. DVD to BluRay is still in transition. Plus there is the whole streaming future that is in flux.

Broadcasters knew about digital HD broadcast for years, that switch was continually pushed back, almost an entire decade. I'm sorry folks, but 1080p is here to stay for some time. It looks fantastic and we just barely got it.

Now this is distribution we're talking about here right? 1080p is great for broadcast, home theater, and web. 3-5k will be great for cinemas within the next decade.

Now I do see benefits in acquiring higher resolution and higher quality images today. It opens up so many more options. Even if you're going straight to television. Shouldn't we be focusing on improving that?

 

[Tom Lowe]

I sorta disagree...

The switch from film to digital projection has been slow and painful. Asking cinemas to upgrade again so soon... especially when 2k and 3k already look so good? unlikely.

Brad, it's not a matter of whether this will happen or not. It's already happening.

Cinemark Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: CNK), the world’s second largest motion picture exhibitor, today announced that it has partnered with digital cinema pioneer Barco, DLP Cinema technology provider Texas Instruments and media server provider Doremi to install the industry’s biggest & brightest 4K digital cinema solution in more than 3,000 screens. The agreement also includes plans for Cinemark’s international locations in Latin America, which would bring the overall deployment to more than 4,600 screens.

http://www.cinemark.com/pressreleasesform_general.asp?step=2&PressReleaseItem=644

AMC Theaters has struck a deal to convert the entire chain -- more than 4,500 screens -- to 4K-capable Sony projectors.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118002510.html?categoryid=2222&cs=1

Also:

The digital revolution has begun. Earlier this year AMC announced that they had signed a $315 million deal to install Sony 4K digital projectors in their entire 309 theater circuit and 4,628 screens. Now Sony has inked a deal with Regal Entertainment to convert a minimum of 5,000 of the exhibitor’s 6,700 screens in 550 theaters.

The two deals, which are set to be completed in the next three to five years, will comprise of over 11,000 screens with Sony 4K digital projectors. Holding out has paid off for the exhibitors, because 4K projectors are not “just marginally more expensive” than the couple year old 2K projectors.

The result will be a huge change in the way we experience movies theatrically. 3D movies will have more screens, allowing them more weeks in exhibition.

http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/05/17/regal-cinemas-to-go-4k-digital/

Trust me, 4K is coming, soon.

 

[JD Holloway]

Full broadside Tom.

 

[JD Holloway]

I have to wonder if it will be "good enough" for you tomorrow. ???

Jim

You have to wonder...what does Jim have in store for tomorrow?
Will domestic RED RAY be unleashed?
Will the 2500USD I spent last week on a Panasonic ae4000u (only 1080p meh...) be for naught?

"And so we remained till the RED of the dawn
began to fall through the snow gloom.
I was desolate and afraid, and full of woe and terror.
But when that beautiful sun began to climb the horizon
life was to me again."

B.Stoker

 

[Brad Olsen]

Fair enough Tom, but do you really think that automatically means other forms of distribution will follow suit? How long was color available before films actually shot in color? And when films were in color how long did it take before television switched to color? HD was being talked about in the 80s, within the last 5 years it finally became a reality in the home. I just feel like we barely reached a summit only to look at an even more impossible mountain and are saying "let's go!" before we can catch our breath!

 

[BradWright]

Good enough is defined by the guy writing the checks.

 

[Bob Rudis]

well said Brad...

 

[Brad Olsen]

Good enough is defined by the guy writing the checks.

so true!

 

[Thomas Mark Schaefer]

1080p not good enough? I agree, but tell that to the local theater operator with antiquated and poorly maintained film projectors that have so much sprocket jitter and focus problems that I'd be surprised if they have an effective resolution of 720p. As a result, I drive almost 1 1/2 hours to Potomac Yards in Arlington for any movie worth watching.

Bring on the scaled 1080p full frame capability in Scarlet and efficient workflow to BluRay.

 

[JD Holloway]

1080p not good enough? I agree, but tell that to the local theater operator with antiquated and poorly maintained film projectors that have so much sprocket jitter and focus problems that I'd be surprised if they have an effective resolution of 720p.

They don't, typically for any print in the world. Its been tested many times. 850 lines is typically tops.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Fair enough Tom, but do you really think that automatically means other forms of distribution will follow suit? How long was color available before films actually shot in color? And when films were in color how long did it take before television switched to color? HD was being talked about in the 80s, within the last 5 years it finally became a reality in the home. I just feel like we barely reached a summit only to look at an even more impossible mountain and are saying "let's go!" before we can catch our breath!

Brad, I'm afraid you are viewing technology advancement in linear terms, rather than exponential (ie, Moore's Law). Read this paper by Kurzweil about the Law of Accelerating Returns: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

Basically, the rate of technology adoption is increasing. So while it took almost 50 years for every American home to get a landline telephone, with cell phones, full adoption took place in less than a decade.

But think about this logically. You go to the cinema and watch a fantastic movie in stunning 4K. Don't you think it's obvious that you would also like to watch it in 4K at home???

Jim has had an incredibly clear vision of 4K distribution for a couple of years now. It's one of the reasons I admire him. Because he can see clearly, and "see things before they happen."

People can bet against 4K distribution if they want. But they will soon be proven wrong. Just like all the people who told us "We don't need HD. No one can tell the difference between DVD and Bluray... blah blah blah."

Definitely check out that Kurzweil piece.

 

[Yang Liu]

Not enough, Red will beat them all. We need Red.