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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Weird DVD question

Kevin G

Kevin G

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Hello everyone, My name is Kevin and I along with my partner Eunice are very happy Red owners. I don't post many questions because I usually find most of my answers here by searching topics. My partner and I usually rent out Mango (our Red) so we unfortunately don't get to use Mango as much as we would like. In any case we shot a commercial for a client recently, used Red Cine x (which we are beginning to like WAY MORE than Red Cine now. didn't think that would ever happen, but it is), Edited and colored in FCP, (simple) Down converted it to SD DVD (in compressor), burned a copy and played it in our dvd player. Now in our standard dvd players it doesn't look impressive at all. Washed out colors, loss of sharpness. Ok no shock there. But we also have a portable digital tv with a dvd player built in. Same DVD, WORLD of difference. It almost looks like a different commercial. Both of our jaws collectively hit the ground. It looks better than it did when we were editing it. OK does anyone have a clue as to what's happening here? I don't want to have to buy a 60 inch TV with a built in dvd player! :smiley: Maybe we should just throw out those dvd players...It can't be that simple, can it? Guys please go easy on us, we are still learning!
 
It's not the DVD player, it's the monitor.

The portable LCD is probably unnaturally contrasty and saturated.

A broadcast TV is less contrasty, much-less saturated and slightly soft.

You probably did the color correction on a monitor that was showed things unnaturally contrasty and saturated.

When you play it on a broadcast TV, it looks flat and soft, but when you play it on a (slightly more) contrasty and saturated LCD it looks good.

Suggestion: try to get the monitor you work off a little less contrasty and saturated. Or use a broadcast monitor or something cailbrated. Alternately, just bang up the contrast, saturation and sharpness for the stuff you're intending for old school broadcast or DVD - and do some tests to see what compromise you can get that looks good across multiple playback device / monitor combinations.

Bruce allen
www.boacinema.com
 
I agree with Bruce on the monitoring differences.

Furthermore -

Red footage, even though it looks good in the edit/grade, needs an extra contrast boost when going to DVD, particularly in Compressor. The first Red DVD project I worked on almost had me in tears it looked so bad on DVD. I created a custom Compressor preset that ups the contrast by about +4 and it made a world of difference. Looks amazing on all screens.
 
Ditto, I would also appreciate that as well Lewis. This seems to be the step that we're hung up on. Everything else is fantastic.
 
I would recommend using DVDxDV to rip it back from a VIDEO_TS image after you compress it and before you burn it to a DVD. DVD work flows can often screw-up the gamma, colors field order, etc. It will save you time and money to check the content out before you burn it to a DVD. I wrote DVDxDV and it's used in every major studio on the planet.
 
Where can I purchase/download a copy of it Brad?
 
BradWright said:
I would recommend using DVDxDV to rip it back from a VIDEO_TS image after you compress it and before you burn it to a DVD. DVD work flows can often screw-up the gamma, colors field order, etc. It will save you time and money to check the content out before you burn it to a DVD. I wrote DVDxDV and it's used in every major studio on the planet.
Click to expand...

That shouldn't be required at all if you're working with calibrated monitors and grading to REC 709.

Noah
 
Lewis-M Soucy said:
A step by step walk in for good compressor DVD quality would be so nice, if any of you have the spare time...
Click to expand...

It's pretty simple- complete your edit. I'd suggest finish at a 1080p timeline to keep it simple. Color grade in Color using the REC709 color and gamma spaces- with a properly calibrated monitor and an HD output card such as a Kona 3.

Then export back to FCP. Send to Compressor- MPEG-2 Best Quality 16:9- match your program length. Drag into DVDSP, track should be 16:9 letterbox- burn author.

I do that all day long and SD DVDs look awesome from RED sources. But yeah it's not point and click RAW to decent SD DVDs.

Noah
 
Noah Kadner said:
Huh- how would re-ripping an MPEG-2 file and then reburning it elsewhere improve the quality? Or is that not what you're suggesting there.

Noah
Click to expand...

You check the final content of the VIDEO_TS folder before you burn it to DVD. This is how you validate your workflow. Run some test footage through a given encoding workflow and then read it back on some video scope. If your original footage produces the vectorscope and waveform values that you expect, it's good. If not, you have problem somewhere in your workflow. It's extremely common in DVD encoding for fields to get shifted or gamma curves to be applied wrong. The bottom line is you need to test your workflow before you distribute.

I've got a couple of easy to read test patterns that I've created for doing this.

http://www.dvdxdv.com/NewFolderLookSite/Products/Movies/TestPatternsTutorialSmall.html
 
Noah Kadner said:
It's pretty simple- complete your edit. I'd suggest finish at a 1080p timeline to keep it simple. Color grade in Color using the REC709 color and gamma spaces- with a properly calibrated monitor and an HD output card such as a Kona 3.

Then export back to FCP. Send to Compressor- MPEG-2 Best Quality 16:9- match your program length. Drag into DVDSP, track should be 16:9 letterbox- burn author.

I do that all day long and SD DVDs look awesome from RED sources. But yeah it's not point and click RAW to decent SD DVDs.

Noah
Click to expand...

Depends on the version of Final Cut. Never send to compressor if you can avoid it. Always render to a stand alone movie then put that movie into compressor. Previous version of Final Cut would cause gamma shifts on this workflow. You can also validate the stand alone movie's content is good.
 
Wait you're saying you'd check for quality in an MPEG-2 by demuxing it to another format? I don't see the point there. The action of rip/recompress to another format means I'm left with something totally different from the MPEG-2 that's on the disc. I'd just burn a disc and check that. No quicker or cheaper way to see your final build quality.

Also- yes I'm just assuming that anyone working with RED can afford to be on FCS3- I mean it's a $299 upgrade...

Noah
 
Noah Kadner said:
Wait you're saying you'd check for quality in an MPEG-2 by demuxing it to another format? I don't see the point there. The action of rip/recompress to another format means I'm left with something totally different from the MPEG-2 that's on the disc. I'd just burn a disc and check that. No quicker or cheaper way to see your final build quality.

Also- yes I'm just assuming that anyone working with RED can afford to be on FCS3- I mean it's a $299 upgrade...

Noah
Click to expand...

They key point is that you know that you have a good quality image before you send the DVD out. Going from Red to SD DVD crosses so many land mines that it should never be assumed to work correctly. Once you have validated that a workflow is good, you can use the tested workflow on any footage you like.

DVDxDV creates a perfect digital copy of the DVDs contents into a Quicktime movie. With this movie you can test for gamma shifts, field order problems, video scaling artifacts and more. 4K Red footage needs be to properly scaled and color converted to fit in a SD video format. Every 24 pixels of Red footage 4K get combined into one to fit on an NTSC DVD. You are crossing potentially 3 color spaces which are RGB, Rec 709, and Rec 601.

You need to carefully ensure that no errors happen along this path. Apple doesn't test every possible workflow, and in many cases bad things happen.
 
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