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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sharpening... ugh?

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Hi Third man,
I agree optics has a lot to do with it.
The 4K ,2K windowed comparison I sighted was shot with
a Super 16 Zoom, with Ultraprimes for the 4k full sensor stuff.
But this will always happen as shooters attempt to match 35mm
FOV when shooting offspeed windowed (cropped) on Red with a
smaller aspect ratio or sensor area.
Having buckets of prime lenses available is not an option for most
film crews, I know it's possible and my dream sets would be:
Zeiss Ultra16- 8mm,9.5,12,14, with Ultra primes 16, 24, 28, 32, 40, 50,
60, 85,100,135,185mm, and some long lenses.
Fact is most people will just throw on a Super 16 Zoom to get
35mm FOV in 2K windowed and good focal length coverage in that wider
lens range.
This equals softer pictures compared to 4K full sensor material shoot with
35mm glass.
If Red is a Digital Film Camera with the potential to be an alternative to
shooting film, the guys should consider this issue, sooner than later.
Mezmo
 
Hi Mezmo,

Totally agree.

Also I've got one vintage Arri Zeiss 10-100 mm T* f2.8 S16mm zoom for 2K windowed.

And should get RED in January.

Then I can see about it.
 
Hi Sanjin,
The one that zooms the wrong way,
Know it well.
Mezmo
 
Hi Sanjin,

Are you sure Leica lenses are really better ?

I have an old Leica 35mm still camera that looks extremely sharp and good.

But to my eyes, some Nikon and Canon looks really sharp and good too.
 
Panavision Primo lenses are made from Leitz elements, and while they are very sharp, they are not sharper than modern Zeiss lenses like the Ultra Primes, and the Zeiss Master Primes are perhaps the sharpest of them all in the cine lens world. Besides, there comes a point where the MTF of the lens perhaps is not as limiting as the MTF of the capturing format, so all the high end lenses can sometimes deliver similar results, sharpness-wise, once the image is photographed by some camera system.
 
Antoine Fabi said:
Hi Sanjin,

Are you sure Leica lenses are really better ?

I have an old Leica 35mm still camera that looks extremely sharp and good.

But to my eyes, some Nikon and Canon looks really sharp and good too.
Click to expand...

Top list for still photo lenses:

1. Leica

2. Zeiss

3. Canon

4. Nikon

5. Olympus

6. Sigma

David Mullen ASC said:
Panavision Primo lenses are made from Leitz elements, and while they are very sharp, they are not sharper than modern Zeiss lenses like the Ultra Primes, and the Zeiss Master Primes are perhaps the sharpest of them all in the cine lens world. Besides, there comes a point where the MTF of the lens perhaps is not as limiting as the MTF of the capturing format, so all the high end lenses can sometimes deliver similar results, sharpness-wise, once the image is photographed by some camera system.
Click to expand...

We are still at the beginning in acquisition of moving images with 4K digital CMOS sensors. Also we still do not know if a role of lens is the most important parameter in the process of creating 4K digital picture or this is maybe a role of RAW post software.

Panavision and Dalsa did rehousing of some Leica lenses for their own rentals not without a GOOD reason. If I would be RED I would also give a chance to Leica that can perform its quality on RED systems. Also I heard that Leica is looking to extend its business in cinema and maybe that is a good opportunity and reason to put those two innovative companies together (RED and LEICA) to produce the best 4K digital acquisition system that can compete with a film acquisition.

Also to mention that Panasonic has very good relation with Leica.

DVX100 and HVX200 users also have to thak Leica Dicomar lenses
for an excellent visual quality of moving pictures that those camcorders can make.

And th winning formula would consist 5 players:

RED/LEICA CINEMA LENSES +

RED (acquisition) +

REDCINE (RAW app) +

FCP/FCS STUDIO 2 (edit/color correct/sound edit) +

SCRATCH (confirm to output)

= RED MAGIC SYSTEM FOR DIGITAL CINEMA REVOLUTION

-----------------------------------------

At the end I would like again to quote and read Erwin Putz:

"Basics of image quality

For a long time, it has been noted that the image quality is based on a few parameters, tonality or gradation of the differences in light intensity (for the plasticity of the image), the crisp delineation of the subject shapes (also known as the acutance of the image) and the clean recording of the fine textural details of the subject surfaces (also known as the definition of the image).

Optical and scientific analysis has indicated that the contrast transfer function (MTF) is a reliable measure of the optical capabilities of a lens or lens/film combo to record these aspects of the image. Since then we are all familiar with the MTF graph, which essentially has the same universal shape: contrast is high when few image details (linepairs per mm) are recorded and contrast is low when many lp/mm are recorded. Between both extremes the curve has a downward sloping shape."

LINK>>>
 
Are there comparison pictures (same reference picture, different lenses) of leica, zeiss, canon, nikon that I could look at?
 
IMO... we shouldn't obsess that much over the sharpness/MTF of any particular lens. Increased sharpness just makes aliasing worse (unless the sensor has really heavy optical low pass filtering)... so you're one step backwards one step forwards in image quality.

2- Ultimately, the best quality will come from a system with a very high sampling rate (maybe beyond 4k?) and heavy optical filtering to avoid aliasing. This way you get both sharpness and alias-free images. Without heavy filtering, you'll get aliasing and are behind in image quality. In practice this may not be doable and we may have to make compromises.

If we are to shoot at a high sampling rate/resolution and output for a lower sampling rate (e.g. shoot 4K output HD, shoot HD output SD), then your best bet is to apply heavy optical filtering to avoid aliasing. Once the image is recorded with aliasing you can't really get rid of it. Whereas it's not that bad to acquire not-that-sharp images, since you can get pretty sharp images once you downsample.

3- On top of that, perceived sharpness is determined by actual sharpness but also other factors (e.g. noise, acutance, etc.). So there are tricks you can use to make an image look sharper.

e.g. adding s-shaped contrast to the image will make the image look sharper... as does other forms of contrast enhancement.
 
jing said:
Are there comparison pictures (same reference picture, different lenses) of leica, zeiss, canon, nikon that I could look at?
Click to expand...

And all should be in 4K tiff(s) but it would take a lot of space and bandwidth to show them online.
 
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