Scarlet X versus Red One MX, New or Second hand (Scarlet)

[Minor Detour]

Hello,

We've put quite a bit of thought into a second camera for our company. I'm posting this to get some different perspectives on the Red market before we pull the trigger on anything.

We're researching for a 2nd camera for our company and Red is at the top of our list. We're a start up and we want something to compliment the BMCC we started out with. We like the quality of the quality/cost factors of the BMCC however we want the next camera to be a step up. (Mainly we want the capability of shooting slow mo.)

$14,000 is probably our max budget just to get something ready to shoot for now. Also, spending $14,000 we want something that's not going to be a money pit with problems or hidden modules we need to purchase to start shooting.

I'm always buying, selling, trading and my first thought as most if to find a 2nd hand package and let somebody else take the retail hit.

However, when I see a Scarlet or Epic where people want $1,500 to $3,000 less than what they paid retail which I would never do, I'm left scratching my head.

With a transfer fee of $500 to $750 and the then $1,500 to get a year warranty, to me whatever the Red camera, you're losing $2,000+ off the bat on a new camera purchase because the year warranty doesn't transfer and you know anybody that wants to buy one 2nd hand probably going to want it to transfer it.

So from there, with technology, (Unless you're dealing with hot items where demand is greater than supply.), I'm lucky if I get 50% for second hand items. Accessories can be even worse. (If products are new and still in the factory packaging then prices are a little different.)

With these high end cameras, in great shape and low use I could see 70% as being reasonable but after that personally I'd just purchase new to having better backing should there be any problems.


The One Mx, I see postings where people feel the need to mention they paid $25,000 but reality Red was selling these last year for $4,000. Plus they are dated from a mentality standpoint. (Not technical necessarily as I'm sure they are still great and capable cameras.) But as many have pointed out, still being great doesn't always translate to a high monetary value.

So a 3 year old, $4,000 camera with $8,000 (retail for accessories), $6,000 in the realms of most technology would be a good offer. But I've seen some posts where individuals get extremely upset at the offers. To me even if you feel it's low, with technology you just say no thank you and be glad you got an offer because a month from now, things could change and you would gladly take $6,000. At some point the pricing of the Scarlet and Epic will come down because of competition and new products.

Having said that, if I had something to sell, I would do the same and try to start high and work my way down. But unless somebody was just being plain disrespectful, then why get emotional?

Additionally, if I knew I wanted most of my money back, I would just say so in the add. Something along the lines of, not in a bind to sell and if it doesn't bring what I'm asking I'll hold on to it.

If you buy and sell alot you constantly see people out of touch with reality trying to sell something priced too high then over time, they end up lowering it to market prices if they are really trying to sell. I see nothing wrong reaching out in these cases and asking somebody to give you a shot at if the price comes down. Why do I get the impression that's offensive with Red equipment.

Anyway, I'm new to the Red scene. Again we're trying to decide between a Scarlet or older Red One MX package. (We would even consider an Epic package and increase our budget but not at 90% of retail.)

With what's out there and the prices, we're leaning towards just purchasing a new Scarlet X, but again I'm interested in hearing other opinions about the resale of these Red cameras and accessories so I get a better idea of the culture and market place.

However, please do not bother if you have something for sale trying to be clever talking up what you have and this is emotional for you. I mean no disrespect and I definitely don't want to get started out on the wrong foot in this wonderful community. However, this is a serious investment for our company and we want to make sure we do everything to find the best value for us.

Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

There are a few fallacies in your comments...

1. RED sold a very limited number of R1MX Battled-Tested cameras for $4000...and the supply was gone in a matter of days. That sale represents a one-time anomaly in the pricing of these cameras, IMO...not the benchmark for all future pricing that some want to make it.

2. New RED cameras are only available from RED, and are updated frequently (new firmware, capabilities and accessories) consequently they hold their value better than some competitors.

3. In the used market, there are a limited number of RED cameras changing hands at any given moment...that availability determines the pricing of used cameras, not wishful thinking about some hypothetical depreciation formula.

4. It is not untypical to spend 3-4 times the cost of the camera body on accessories, and those accessories, being industry-standard items, hold their value as well (if not better) than the cameras themselves.

5. RED offers upgrades on both the Scarlet and Epic cameras to Dragon at a known price, which puts a "floor" under the value of the camera in the used market.

That being said, you will definitely get a better deal on a used R1MX package, and frankly, in many respects, the R1 is the better camera (more shooting formats, higher frame rates, better audio capability, more connectivity). You can easily buy a well-equipped R1MX package for under $10K. However, if shooting HFR is your primary reason for buying a RED, the only camera that will really satisfy your needs is an Epic.

my .02...

 

[Brian Wicens]

There are a few fallacies in your comments...

1. RED sold a very limited number of R1MX Battled-Tested cameras for $4000...and the supply was gone in a matter of days. That sale represents a one-time anomaly in the pricing of these cameras, IMO...not the benchmark for all future pricing that some want to make it.

2. New RED cameras are only available from RED, and are updated frequently (new firmware, capabilities and accessories) consequently they hold their value better than some competitors.

3. In the used market, there are a limited number of RED cameras changing hands at any given moment...that availability determines the pricing of used cameras, not wishful thinking about some hypothetical depreciation formula.

4. It is not untypical to spend 3-4 times the cost of the camera body on accessories, and those accessories, being industry-standard items, hold their value as well (if not better) than the cameras themselves.

5. RED offers upgrades on both the Scarlet and Epic cameras to Dragon at a known price, which puts a "floor" under the value of the camera in the used market.

That being said, you will definitely get a better deal on a used R1MX package, and frankly, in many respects, the R1 is the better camera (more shooting formats, higher frame rates, better audio capability, more connectivity). You can easily buy a well-equipped R1MX package for under $10K. However, if shooting HFR is your primary reason for buying a RED, the only camera that will really satisfy your needs is an Epic.

my .02...

+1


If you're coming onto a forum as a new user seeking education, please don't patronize the community by offering your fan theories when it comes to the breakdown on items you're attempting to get into - it's not becoming of anyone.

 

[Minor Detour]

Thank you Tom for your candid and thought out response.

The $4,000 price for the Red One just proves it can happen and when/if consumers upgrade scarlets to Epics, Epics to Dragon etc, Red will have "Battle Tested" cameras they will probably sell. If that happens it'll put pressure on R1 sellers at least temporarily.

I'm not partial either way, if I'm comfortable there is a relatively good chance prices will hold, we'll spend whatever. #3, For us, no wishful thinking but more so if second hand prices aren't at a certain level, then we'll just purchase new.

I have no formulas either just experience buying and selling.

Presently HFR is not on our list of wants or needs.

However, I like the Scarlet to have an upgrade path to an Epic down the road if things turn out the way plan. Plus you don't have the hassle of trying to sell a package because if things work out like we plan we want to move to an Epic at some point down the road when business justifies it.

Thanks for the comments on the R1MX, if we find a good package in the $8k range then we may just go that route. (I'm trying to figure out a price range for these to move.) I see several starting out at $11k and sit for a while. (Usually have lcd, evf, cage, drives and some have lens.)

From what research I've done, the packages we'd want, seems $8k would be a great deal and as you pointed out $10 on the higher end.

Thanks again Tom. I really appreciate your time and input.

 

[Barbara Holler]

As someone who has been in business buying and selling quality used equipment for 21years and mostly camera & production gear I believe I can give you some food for thought. Used equipment is a great way to save money however there are some things to consider when buying used.

1. Are you saving enough money to justify not getting a warranty?
2. Get the history of the camera. Was it used in fishing shows? you may want to look for another camera.
3. Was the camera a rental camera? Owner operator? Are there any maintenance records? Is all the firmware and software up to date? I very rarely sell rental equipment and for a good reason.
4. Get pictures I also look when representing someone's gear at the cosmetics as that does, to a degree, indicate if the person has taken care of it.

When purchasing a used Red camera you can make arrangements to have the camera completely checked out by Red. Also they will want a transfer of ownership fee. I believe it is $750.00

If you go thru those questions and everything adds up I say then it is worth purchasing used and saving the money. Most important when purchasing equipment.

I have sold many used Reds in my days and a few just recently and all went perfect. No issues and everyone was happy!

I hope this was of help.

Good luck in you journey and with your new company!
Sincerely,
Barbara

 

[Terry VerHaar]

OH - and you might note that this os a real names forum. Personally, I like that because it allows you to get a sense that you are talking to a real person and not a troll. But, my preferences aside, it is the rule.

You will have to excuse my comment if your name is real and just the result of some imaginative parents.

 

[Minor Detour]

OH - and you might note that this os a real names forum. Personally, I like that because it allows you to get a sense that you are talking to a real person and not a troll. But, my preferences aside, it is the rule.

You will have to excuse my comment if your name is real and just the result of some imaginative parents.

Name is Kris Frost. I've had a hard time getting an account created on RedUser.Net. This is the third attempt and finally this one got activated. I'm in the process of trying to edit my profile and put my name in my signature, but alas now I get access denied when trying to do so.

Minor Detour is our company name.

 

[Minor Detour]

+1

If you're coming onto a forum as a new user seeking education, please don't patronize the community by offering your fan theories when it comes to the breakdown on items you're attempting to get into - it's not becoming of anyone.

How does one get educated if they think and their perception is of something????? If you ask a general question with no context you get all kinds of responses and I prefer not to wade through the emotional ones.

If we didn't get a response, we'd just go the new route.

We're about to the point of just purchasing a new camera but the problem of only going by prices people are asking is sometimes they they aren't close to reality of what they actually sell for. I hope some of these prices are supported, because that makes it easier just to go with a new camera.

 

[Minor Detour]

Barbara,

Thanks for your reply. If the price warrants of a used package warrants taking a chance on it then we would but. A Scarlet, 2 or $3,000 under the cost of a new one, we'd just go with a new one.

Anybody basing a sell of a R1 on purchasing it for $25,000 again we'll just go with a new Scarlet.

Plus probably our cut off line for a R1 is probably the 8 to 10k range or else we'll just go with a base Scarlett and have an upgrade package.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

(Mainly we want the capability of shooting slow mo.)

This comment is why I referred to HFR (high frame rates)...specifically for slo-mo use. Scarlet only shoots to 60fps at 2K, while Epic will shoot 120fps at 5K and 300fps at 2K...big difference!

 

[Minor Detour]

This comment is why I referred to HFR (high frame rates)...specifically for slo-mo use. Scarlet only shoots to 60fps at 2K, while Epic will shoot 120fps at 5K and 300fps at 2K...big difference!

*Embarrased* I confused HFR with something else. Thanks or the correction.

Right now we only get 30fps with the BMCC. I need to dig up what the R1 MX does.

Where we're at we just can't justify the price of the Epic but definitely a goal is to get to one down the road.

Thanks

Kris

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Shortened your quote to stay within topic:

However, when I see a Scarlet or Epic where people want $1,500 to $3,000 less than what they paid retail which I would never do, I'm left scratching my head….

….So from there, with technology, (Unless you're dealing with hot items where demand is greater than supply.), I'm lucky if I get 50% for second hand items. Accessories can be even worse. (If products are new and still in the factory packaging then prices are a little different.)

With these high end cameras, in great shape and low use I could see 70% as being reasonable but after that personally I'd just purchase new to having better backing should there be any problems…..

…. I've seen some posts where individuals get extremely upset at the offers. To me even if you feel it's low, with technology you just say no thank you and be glad you got an offer because a month from now, things could change and you would gladly take $6,000. At some point the pricing of the Scarlet and Epic will come down because of competition and new products.

Having said that, if I had something to sell, I would do the same and try to start high and work my way down. But unless somebody was just being plain disrespectful, then why get emotional?

Additionally, if I knew I wanted most of my money back, I would just say so in the add. Something along the lines of, not in a bind to sell and if it doesn't bring what I'm asking I'll hold on to it.

If you buy and sell alot you constantly see people out of touch with reality trying to sell something priced too high then over time, they end up lowering it to market prices if they are really trying to sell. I see nothing wrong reaching out in these cases and asking somebody to give you a shot at if the price comes down. Why do I get the impression that's offensive with Red equipment.

With what's out there and the prices, we're leaning towards just purchasing a new Scarlet X, but again I'm interested in hearing other opinions about the resale of these Red cameras and accessories so I get a better idea of the culture and market place.

An important consideration when looking at RED products. Upgradeability.

You do not get that with other manufacturers - hence, why "second hand" RED products have a higher market value. I know of no SONY F-3 that can be upgraded to a 55. Ditto with Canon or other manufacturer products. Can I send in my BMD body for an upgrade to a 4K version? Haven't heard about that program yet. Don't think I will.
On the other hand, that used Scarlet can be upgraded to an EPIC-X or even a Dragon Scarlet in time. That is of very high value - and many owners take that into consideration when determining a price for their "used" gear.

As with everything in life, market demands will shape the price of not only used, but new gear. When you have a camera system with accessories that will survive multiple generations of models, you have a long term investment winner. And cross-compatibility. Most everything that fits on a Scarlett works on an EPIC - and there is nothing to imply that's about to change. That solidifies the investment in accessories.

I still have my REDOne - and expect to keep it well into next year. It remains a valuable workhorse.
My EPIC-X will be host to a Dragon sensor.
And my Scarlet will morph into a second EPIC Dragon.

The value becomes apparent after owning these cameras. Knowing that RED continually improves the product and offers more capability is reassuring. There is enough transparency to be able to plan for the future without excess financial risk. Hope that answers part of your question about the culture and marketplace...

 

[Minor Detour]

Thanks Brian. What you pointed out is why we're leaning towards the Red. I doubt we'll have the justification for 3 high end cameras like you any time soon. So the dilemma is either finding a great deal on a R1 MX. Something we can get and when the business is there just jump straight to the Epic-X. But I don't want to go this route if the cost results in us loosing much on it, if we're going loose, I think we'd rather just go with a new Scarlett. (Used but the price would have to be in our threshold.)

I do like the option of being able go from the Scarlet to the Epic with no hassle of having to sale it.

So I think if we can find a well equipped R1 MX package in the $8k range, then that should be at a point we get back out of it fairly painless at some point when it's time to go to the Epic. If that doesn't come around in the next little while, then we'll just go with Scarlet.

Thanks everyone for the input.

Kris

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Kris,

You may find over time (as I did) that an extra job or two or three means that you can keep the R1 as a backup or B-Cam.
Never know when that will be more than a nice-to-have.
I did not buy all at once - they have been spaced out with the return on one applied to another...

Good luck on your research and acquisitions!

 

[Mike P.]

You will be in a money-pit-esque type situation. Even buying a "complete package" might not suit your shooting style or the projects you shoot, so you'll need to buy more gear to compensate.

For example, your support will likely need to change (specifically tripod), unless your current rig is 20+ lbs as well (doubt it if the base is a BMCC). That alone will be over $1k for a decent one. You can never have enough media and REDmags are expensive (not like over the counter SSDs). Batteries? You'll need a lot more and they're likely more expensive than you're used to. The R1 chews through them… You'd need a hot swap plate (another couple hundred), lest you need to wait for a 90second reboot every battery swap… If you're on DSMC, you need to invest in a couple of REDvolts and SideHandle just to have hotswappability. Everything is proprietary with RED (which means $$). Conversely, now that everyone is jumping in to the 4k space, prices are going to start falling pretty hard. Buying a R1 with the intention or retaining resale value isn't a wise strategy, even if you're in no rush to sell… It's EOL. At least Scarlet has the Dragon path to retain some of its value, but who knows how long that'll be available for.

To be honest, I'd recommend a $1k BMPocket or even a 2nd BMCC ($2k, then sell the resolve license for $500?) and use it as a hold over until a.) Dragon gets released (and prices fall) and/or b.) you've had an opportunity to really weigh the pros and cons of every 4k and/or RAW option out there (or to use while you wait until the right used package comes along for a really wicked price). Then when you decide what to buy, whatever it may be, you can sell off what ever incredibly cheap hold-over camera you got for the meantime.

Another thing I'll say is that coming from a BMCC really spoils you when compared to R1mx in the field/operation. The R1 takes 90seconds to boot, and is way (WAY) heavier than what you're used to. Plus the shape/size is incredibly cumbersome to what you've been using. It doesn't sound like that big of a deal (it's 4.5k WS and 2k at 120fps!!! in RAW), but mark my words, it is definitely a giant pain in the ass if you've not been accustomed to it already. I'm willing to bet that after the initial purchase excitement wears off, you'll likely end up using your BMCC more often. For example, on all but the most basic of rigs, it takes two people to move a set-up on sticks (one to take the camera and one for the sticks).

What are you planning on shooting with it? Another important question; have you ever done a project all the way through on RED? It may be best to rent for a project, take it through your start-ups post pipeline, and finish it before dropping ~$14k on kit that might not be conducive to your shooting/editing/project style. Better to blow $1k finding out it isn't for you, than blowing $14k, finding out it doesn't work for your purpose, and hoping to make that money back on resale.

 

[Minor Detour]

Thanks Mike. We run our BMCC in a rig right now and weight is north of 20lbs. We did purchase a Manfrotto to support it.

You definitely have some really good points. We've considered some of them and honestly waiting for the BMCC 4k and hoping for higher FPS has been a thought as well. But we're planning in this direction now because of the uncertainty. Plus we want something with capabilities greater than 30fps.

Also a camera that has lossless compression when shooting at higher resolutions.

The battery situation with the BMCC, we try to shoot plugged most of the time for what we're doing.

No, we have no experience with a Red but would like too. The used avenue is trying to figure out a way to get one, get hands on, learn it and our processes and then hopefully be out of it cheaper and with more experience than renting.

We plan on shooting shorts and just finished our first commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abdO1P9QY6w

We're looking into industrials as well to generate revenue and that us looking at the Sony FS700. I agree 100% with your comment "HOPING to make money back on resale." The main reason for this post. Or if we feel we can get a new Scarlet and you actually only lose a couple of K on resell worse case, we could live with that as well.

Thanks Mike for the helpful insight. Exactly the type of thing we're looking for.

 

[dio Zafi]

I use a super 16mm for high speed stuff…red mx …and bmcc