S16mm SR3/Schoeps/SD302/+ZoomH4N = Sync sound feasible?

[EvanProsofsky]

Hi all,

I plan to shoot a sync sound project on the SR3 very soon. Unfortunately the only sound recorder currently available in Edmonton to rent is the Zoom H4N, i've been told by many sources that this will work and sound good if I run it through my sound devices 302 preamps, but I would like to know what you guys think of this, and if there is anything you think I should know about. (understanding that I am a relative audio newb)

Is it just as easy as running the Schoeps through the 302 through the H4N, and setting the recording quality to it's highest?

Is there a certain setting I need to know about in order to ensure sync between the H4N and the SR3? Obviously, a clapper slate will be used. I'm referring to possible drift in sync due to different frame rates or problems in editing.

Sorry for being so vague, still very un educated when it comes to the whole audio side of things.

Thanks so much!
Evan

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Hey Evan

Well it sounds to me like what you have in mind will work. But one thing to think about is what will happen to the transfer from film to tape or film to hard drive. If the camera is set at 24 and the telecine is 23.98, then I believe that about every 40 seconds, you will be out of sync by one frame. So find out if you can how the film transfer will be handled. If they are using a standard telecine that is running 23.98 or 23.976 (can't remember which it might be) then you will probably want to set the SR3 to that speed, and I believe that you can do that as it has 3 decimal place speed control built in.

Aside from that, you will probably find that the cam is noisier than most video cameras and so a mic like the Sanken CS3 or Senn 416 is better at rejecting off axis noise than the Schoeps. But maybe it will be a quiet cam or your Schoeps will work fine.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Double system sound using crystal

Double system sound using crystal

You can always adjust the mixed WAV of the sound track from the head "Edit Sync" mark on the film and beep in the mix with any good audio editing software such as Magix.

If you shoot at 24.000fps and the edit will play at 23.976023976fps then the should needs to be made longer.

The ratio of the NTSC sound to DCI sound is 1000/1001 or its inverse.

Double system sound using a crystal recorder will only hold sync for maybe 4 minutes, but that was not a problem in filmmaking since most takes are less than one minute.

For making a sound negative for printing, some kind of sync is needed, 60Hz pilot tone or SMPTE time code, you cannot just play a 22minute WAV from a computer into the 35mm film sound recorder or mag film recorder running off the AC and hold sync for the full 22 minutes.

If you edit using a sync block for 24.000fps footage, you get 2000 audio samples for each image frame when you record at 48000 samples/second.

In my sound mixing I recomend editing at 24fps then stretch the mixed WAV later for use in NTSC formats.

You can make the number of samples larger per frame and edit at the NTSC playback rate as well, but once you have edited if you change the frame rate of the playback to non NTSC without image mixing, the audio will then need to be shifted off pitch (or chopped up with non-pitch shifting software).

Try to record so that your peak average sound level is at -12 to -18 db vu, as digital recorders do not have head room like tape recorders did, it will hard clip the sound. Have AGC/AVC turned off so you can use noise gate software later in post without the background noise level going up and down.

A VHS camcorder will hold sync since it is crystal, if you shoot with it along side the S16 camera and zoom in on the actors mouth you can use those tapes later to help do the ADR, much easer to see the lip sync than on a transfer from the film, just be sure to record audio on the camcorder through its mic input with a line out from the WAV recorder (using a pad cable), and get the clap board close in the shot so you can align on that start mark later. To get better audio on tape, you can take the video out of the camcorder to a SVHS-HI-FI recorder. If you use more that one camcorder zoomed in on the actors mouths you can have those shots to ADR or loop each actor in the shot and be sure you get the looping with good lip sync. Digital camcorders use key-frame and interpolation and do not give true lip sync and so could be less useful.

Because of the camera noise and noise from the lights, small mic taped to the far side of the actor (or a flag stand hidden) as close to their mounth as possable, it is hard to get good sound if the mic is more than 12 inches from the actor. Shotgun mics are mostly useful for a scratch track, not for useful audio, they do reject camera noise maybe 12 to 20 db but that is not enough to get a clean track indoors in a small room with a non-blimped movie camera, if you are going to use a shotgun use it outdoors with a long lens, so the camera is maybe 30 feet from the mic and actors and the mic is within 3 feet of the actor, and tell the actors to work on their "natural sounding" but loud voice. Just having the actor speak-up can improve the S/N ratio by 20db.

 

[Trailangel]

Jesus, what are you thinking? Best and easiest advice..... throw that Zoom into the trash. Rent SD 702T and TC slate. You can rent from other places and have shipped. How much is your project worth? Do you want to spend more $ in post or just a little more in production? BTW, boom mic is always quite usable in movies. Shoot a VHS camcorder along side your super 16.....WHAT? Don't be ridiculous!

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Looping

Looping

Shoot a VHS camcorder along side your super 16.....WHAT? Don't be ridiculous!

Many times on no budget films it can be hard to get actors back to do their looping. If you are shooting film it can take a week to get the negative processed and scanned and a tape back to look at. If the actors are from somewhere else you may not be able to use them to loop their parts as needed.

On long and medium shots it can be hard to see the lip sync from a telecine of 16mm film.

If you have the camcorder footage, you can loop the same day with the same mic in the same enviroment minus the camera and lights noise, you just need a mic mixer, two VCR, and a monitor and some cables.

If you do not get good audio to use the day of the shooting, and the actor does not or cannot come back later, you cannot build a good soundtrack.

Also being able to loop with the same mic and enviroment helps the looping match the sync tracks. You can decide later which you use in the final mix.