Need Advice for Sound Recording on Scarlet

[Michael Gyori]

I've been using a Rode VideoMic Pro (connected into the 3.5mm audio input) with our Scarlet for scratch audio. Unfortunately, the audio quality is below what I think is possible.

What settings do people use to get quality audio on their Scarlets?

Limiter? No limiter? db boost? 10? 30? more? Balanced? Unbalanced?

Rode Mic settings: 0db boost? 20db boost? Filtered?

Does it make sense that I have to boost the audio by 40db+ on camera to get reasonable levels for someone talking right in front of the mic?

Attaching the same mic (set to 0 db boost and no filter) to our Canon XF100 (set to auto level) produces great usable audio, from whispering to yelling.

 

[Werner Jauch]

I've been using a Rode VideoMic Pro (connected into the 3.5mm audio input) with our Scarlet for scratch audio. Unfortunately, the audio quality is below what I think is possible.

What settings do people use to get quality audio on their Scarlets?

Limiter? No limiter? db boost? 10? 30? more? Balanced? Unbalanced?

Rode Mic settings: 0db boost? 20db boost? Filtered?

Does it make sense that I have to boost the audio by 40db+ on camera to get reasonable levels for someone talking right in front of the mic?

Attaching the same mic (set to 0 db boost and no filter) to our Canon XF100 (set to auto level) produces great usable audio, from whispering to yelling.

You need a $5 mono/stereo 3.5mm adapter plug from Radioshack between the mike and the Scarlet. Using this I get decent scratch audio with a $5 laptop mike .

 

[Marc Wielage]

Does it make sense that I have to boost the audio by 40db+ on camera to get reasonable levels for someone talking right in front of the mic?

It does if the actor is too far from the microphone. A great deal about getting good sound involves putting the microphone where the actor is, not where the camera is.

If you're using the microphone to capture someone talking, then it's no longer a scratch microphone -- it's an interview microphone. And I think on top of the camera is the last place it should be.

A good wireless lav and/or a boom microphone will solve this problem far better than anything you could do on the camera itself.

 

[Michael Gyori]

@Werner Jauch... I wouldn't be getting any audio if I didn't already ensure that the mono audio was only coming in one line on the Scarlet (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-RODE-VIDEO-MIC-PRO-working-with-Scarlet-Epic).

A lack of audio is not my problem. It's audio quality. If I don't boost it at least 40db, everything is very quiet... but when boosted 40db+ I'm getting bad noise. The limiter seems to be useless as sound still peaks and gets clipped.

@Marc Wielage... Yes, I understand that the closer the mic to the source of sound, the better. That's why it's frustrating when I'm 10 inches (yes!) from the front of the Rode VideoMicPro, and the recording is VERY quiet unless I'm boosting it 40db+ in the Scarlet.

My understanding of scratch audio, is that it's a reference audio track, used for lining slate claps to the real audio, and maybe some samples of audio for foley recreation. I'm not expecting it to be awesome quality! But the Canon XF100 with the same mic set to auto level captures significantly more useable audio than what I'm getting from my Scarlet.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Yes, I understand that the closer the mic to the source of sound, the better. That's why it's frustrating when I'm 10 inches (yes!) from the front of the Rode VideoMicPro, and the recording is VERY quiet unless I'm boosting it 40db+ in the Scarlet.

Use a mixer with a clean microphone preamp for the boom, and it'll sound better. Note that there is such a thing as "self-noise" for all microphones, and there are much better-quality microphones out there. I'd put the Sennheisers very high on that list, particularly the MKH series.

 

[Richard Luke]

Hello
I'm using a Rode NT5 with Scarlet. Gain set around +40dB. Limiter on. The audio is quite good. Might be the overall quality and internal gain of the Video mic.

 

[Werner Jauch]

@Werner Jauch... I wouldn't be getting any audio if I didn't already ensure that the mono audio was only coming in one line on the Scarlet (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-RODE-VIDEO-MIC-PRO-working-with-Scarlet-Epic).

A lack of audio is not my problem. It's audio quality. If I don't boost it at least 40db, everything is very quiet... but when boosted 40db+ I'm getting bad noise. The limiter seems to be useless as sound still peaks and gets clipped.

@Marc Wielage... Yes, I understand that the closer the mic to the source of sound, the better. That's why it's frustrating when I'm 10 inches (yes!) from the front of the Rode VideoMicPro, and the recording is VERY quiet unless I'm boosting it 40db+ in the Scarlet.

My understanding of scratch audio, is that it's a reference audio track, used for lining slate claps to the real audio, and maybe some samples of audio for foley recreation. I'm not expecting it to be awesome quality! But the Canon XF100 with the same mic set to auto level captures significantly more useable audio than what I'm getting from my Scarlet.

Not sure from your post, does this mean you have cut the little wire in your Rode Videomic? If you have then the $5 Radioshack adapter won't help. I use this http://www.meritline.com/mini-microphone-for-computer-pc-laptop-notebook---p-38156.aspx for scratch audio. Without the Radioshack adapter useless, with the adapter works fine. Rode Videomic Pro is obviously a much better mike, but AFAIK it uses a 3.5mm stereo plug (sending the identical mono signal to each "stereo" channel), the Scarlet uses a 3.5mm TRS socket, same physical size but it expects a balanced signal thus is looking to amplify the difference between the two but being fed two identical signals gets a noisy low level result. AFAIK this is roughly what the problem is but my explanation may not be 100% correct. The Radioshack adaptersolves the inconsistencies between the signals, for $5 I suggets you just give it a try

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

... A great deal about getting good sound involves putting the microphone where the actor is, not where the camera is. If you're using the microphone to capture someone talking, then it's no longer a scratch microphone -- it's an interview microphone. And I think on top of the camera is the last place it should be. ... A good wireless lav and/or a boom microphone will solve this problem far better than anything you could do on the camera itself.

Of course Marc is correct. And, having a dedicated sound person makes this a piece of cake. However, for the times when you can't afford a sound guy you might want to consider this:

You can use a small digital recorder, something like a Zoom H1. You can run a wired lav into the Zoom and record all the way up to 24bit/96kHz if you want (24/48 should work just fine though) and then run a line out from Zoom (the output level is adjustable) to the Scarlet. You get dual audio: the Zoom file + a scratch track. Is it as good as a Nomad or something like that? Of course not. But, you might be pleasantly surprised with this "guerrilla" alternative.

However, if audio is key. Then get a sound guy with the proper tools.





____________________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Bettie Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8

 

[Leo. C. Rogers]

My experience of getting usable audio without spending anything:

Keep the mic far away from the camera.

Do get a stereo to dual mono adapter.

Use Waves XNoise which will learn the noise profile and cancel it out pretty well. Even in extremely noisy settings I've been able to use this and end up with clean dialog. On the lower/less usable end you will hear some flange/phase in the talking but with creative use of other sound this can be minimized.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Keep the mic far away from the camera.

Actually, keeping the microphone close to the actor is the right idea. The camera is going to be all over the place, but the actor -- or whoever is speaking in the specific scene -- is what's important.

Use Waves XNoise which will learn the noise profile and cancel it out pretty well. Even in extremely noisy settings I've been able to use this and end up with clean dialog. On the lower/less usable end you will hear some flange/phase in the talking but with creative use of other sound this can be minimized.

XNoise is a crutch (and is fairly old at this point), and not nearly as good as WNS or iZotope RX in my opinion. To me, all these noise reduction programs should only be necessary in extremely bad situations, not for normal shooting. They all have audible artifacts and tend to contaminate the sound in different ways.

No software program can take the place of just getting the dialogue right in the first place. And there are no shortcuts for that beyond good equipment, experience, and choosing the right location.

 

[Leo. C. Rogers]

Actually, keeping the microphone close to the actor is the right idea. The camera is going to be all over the place, but the actor -- or whoever is speaking in the specific scene -- is what's important.

Well yes but you know what I mean about far from the air conditioning unit that is your RED SCARLET/EPIC

XNoise is a crutch (and is fairly old at this point), and not nearly as good as WNS or iZotope RX in my opinion. To me, all these noise reduction programs should only be necessary in extremely bad situations, not for normal shooting. They all have audible artifacts and tend to contaminate the sound in different ways.

Sometimes normal shooting is extremely bad circumstances... Working on entirely self funded feature film for example... I sometimes have a crew and all the right gear, but if I can wing it I do, and with some creative attitude sound work in post you can still make something beautiful. I'm going to look into the plugs you listed though, and thanks for the response.

No software program can take the place of just getting the dialogue right in the first place. And there are no shortcuts for that beyond good equipment, experience, and choosing the right location.

Totally sage, what you're saying. Sometimes, though, a shorcut is just the road to where you want to be...

 

[Michael Gyori]

Thanks guys for all the comments.

In answer to some of your questions or assumptions:

Yes, I did cut the wire in my Rode VideoMic so that it wasn't sending identical signals that would cancel each other out on the Scarlet. I wouldn't be getting any sound recorded if I didn't do this or use an adapter.

Yes, we do record quality audio with a Rode NTG2 mic attached to a Tascam DR100. It records great sound, especially when we can get the NTG2 very close to what we are recording.

Yes, I process our audio on occasion in Sound Forge. The Noise Reduction filter is very effective at removing bad consistent noise.

I'm not asking about HOW to get sound recorded on my Scarlet, nor am I asking for different setups that can record great sound.

I'm asking why the same mic with a different camera (Canon XF100) can capture significantly better sound than with my Scarlet. Is the auto level feature on the XF100 the only reason? I'll perform some more experiments when I have time.