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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Marvel's Jessica Jones - Official Trailer #2 - Shot on RED

Ben Scott said:
An adult show these days is one that deals with people trying to pay their mortgage or talking about complex emotions.. This deals with superheroes and supervillains with special powers. We've come a long way in what is acceptable on tv these days but that doesn't mean the target demographic still isn't 16-35 year olds.
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So you mean that this show, that has the purest form of patriarch symbolism and the feminist struggles against it, which deals with how to handle trauma while doing something good and goes deep into what makes humans have power (not superhero powers) over others and what drives our willpower to do certain things... isn't dealing with complex emotions?

Paying mortgage is NOT what makes up a story aimed towards an adult audience. Also, do you mean to say that the adult audience is over 35 years of age and everything under that is considered "young"? Please, an adult mature audience probably starts around mid to end 20's. 16 year olds are not the same as 35 year olds, that demographic span is way too wide.
 
No. It's a superhero show. Just like with the Nolan Batman films, just because it's a bit desaturated it doesn't make it suddenly adult. Is it more adult orientated than Agents of Shield? Than Arrow? Yes. but Agents of Shield isn't the yardstick by which these things are judged outside Marvel-land.

I've been given a target 16-35 demographic plenty of times when making Tv in the past.

I like it though. And I am outside that demographic :)

It's great that tv shows can appeal to a broader cross-section of ages/cultures etc than perhaps previously.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
So you mean that this show, that has the purest form of patriarch symbolism and the feminist struggles against it, which deals with how to handle trauma while doing something good and goes deep into what makes humans have power (not superhero powers) over others and what drives our willpower to do certain things... isn't dealing with complex emotions?

Paying mortgage is NOT what makes up a story aimed towards an adult audience. Also, do you mean to say that the adult audience is over 35 years of age and everything under that is considered "young"? Please, an adult mature audience probably starts around mid to end 20's. 16 year olds are not the same as 35 year olds, that demographic span is way too wide.
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+1

This show is really something important. Every episode I think how glad I am that something like this is out there with all the messages it carries.
 
As I say, I really enjoy it.

However at some point in the not too distant future we are going to reach critical mass and there will be a huge issue to contemplate down the line. If nobody but the biggest is getting to make big movies that aren't superhero movies, and then you look at the list of current Marvel and DC tv series, and the list of new ones coming out next year...

Well...
 
Ben Scott said:
An adult show these days is one that deals with people trying to pay their mortgage or talking about complex emotions.. This deals with superheroes and supervillains with special powers. We've come a long way in what is acceptable on tv these days but that doesn't mean the target demographic still isn't 16-35 year olds.
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Exactly. It deals with super heroes with special powers, she the arm that throws men over bars, he the skin that dulls skill saws. These ain't regular humans and so their world of problems are "super." Cool. I'm in. Further, her guilt at the deaths caused by her deeds can be explored by regular humans and dramatized in this world but there are "cartoon" aspects of this story line that cannot be ignored as they drive the narrative. I'm fine with it. I enjoy much of it but I agree with Ben here that this story does not explore the emotional landscape of regular humans from a regular narrative.

A show like The Affair or Breaking Bad does. A show like the Leftovers does not (although the theme of mortality is better explored here than in JJ but it does scare the bejesus out of people). Anytime you invoke the supernatural you're in the land of myth and stories that don't comport with worldly experiences and so, it is a sort of cop out if you like the "adult" ones.
 
Steven Hammer said:
...it was a little distracting that they had sheets covering them, really, who cares.
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it removes the suspension of disbelief

Steven Hammer said:
...Maybe the sheets allowed them to show a view that, without the sheets would be X-rated.
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No, its just lazy unimaginative cinematography.
Refer to sex scenes in the season one reboot of House of Shields.
In HOS, the sex scenes creatively capture the essence of passion, are NOT X-rated, AND strengthen character development.

Lee Saxon said:
I don't think anyone's saying that their having sex didn't serve the story, just that awkwardly and obnoxiously filming that sex didn't serve the story.
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Exactly

Christoffer Glans said:
So you mean that this show, that has the purest form of patriarch symbolism and the feminist struggles against it, which deals with how to handle trauma while doing something good and goes deep into what makes humans have power (not superhero powers) over others and what drives our willpower to do certain things... isn't dealing with complex emotions?
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It is, but badly.
It is not deep; frankly the show came off to me as very shallow.

In frequent conversation w/ several women professionals, may whom were english and journalism majors,
Not one of them enjoyed the show or had anything good to say about it.
AND this in in the San Francisco Bay Area - what some refer to as the liberal feminist heart of America.

To me, JJ on netflix felt like exploitation of feminism written w/out authority.

A pale shadow to what could have been, if not for a better creative team.

(The intro is sweet though)
 
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Daniel Reed said:
To me, JJ on netflix felt like exploitation of feminism written w/out authority.
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What? Trust me, here in the very feminist country of Sweden which is even more feminist than SF bay area, it's talked about in a very positive manner. Just because some woman doesn't like the show doesn't mean it doesn't cover the very problems that woman face in todays world. There's a strong point in how Kilgrave is portrayed as the man who represent all those bad sides of men. Everything about this show is showing a symbolic struggle against this kind of control that men has over women. Just look at the key scenes, like the scene where they talk about the 18 seconds of "freedom" she had (yellow dress scene), look at what that scene is all about. Isn't it obvious that this serie is dealing with all of these kind of struggles pumped up into a sledge hammer instead of subtle, easy to miss, minor bits and pieces like we see so many times in other movies and shows?

This show revolves entirely around all the problems with a patriarchy in our society and puts a character in there who fights against it coming from being a victim of it.
So why is it a deep show about this? Because it handles all these questions in a mature way, laying out questions and thought experiments to the audience about these issues, rather than "being" a feminist story. Most other feminist stories are just about characters being just that... feminists or victims and the dark sides about it. This show takes the invisible "mind control" of patriarchy and makes the thought experiment of it being real mind control, highlighting the feminist struggles which most of the time feels hidden or easy to miss in everyday life.

Being English and journalist majors means nothing in this matter and I don't agree with it exploiting or being a pale shadow of "what it could have been". I rather recommend you to talk to gender study majors or people living in more progressive societies. And I would rather say that this show really highlights feminism, where other shows are the shallow ones and only scratching the surface of the subject.

Hugh Scully said:
Anytime you invoke the supernatural you're in the land of myth and stories that don't comport with worldly experiences and so, it is a sort of cop out if you like the "adult" ones.
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This is bull...
You mean to say that it's not better to use such stories for highlighting real conflicts and creating philosophical thought experiments which triggers new thoughts and bring perspective to real issues in the world? It's the whole point of such stories if they are good. A "normal" story about "normal" people might scratch the surface of a problem, while sci-fi and myth stories have always been about creating thought experiments for the audience. The whole point of the old greek myths played in amphitheatres was to highlight real issues and conflicts in peoples lives to give them tools to think about them. It's absolutely "adult" if the issues are subjects that are mature, like a patriarch society filled with control and rape-culture. This show does just that, handles really mature subjects in the sci-fi realm, highlighting them in order to talk about them.
 
Ben Scott said:
This is all that matters. Complaining about a lack of nudity is absurd.

The lack of hardcore sex scenes really ruined Gone With The Wind for me :(
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It's not about that, it's about what's true for the characterization in the story. Jessica isn't the "cover herself up with bed sheets" in-secure kind of girl. It has nothing to do with nudity, it has to do with "censorship" screaming at you while watching and reduce the believability of the story. Even supernatural stories need logic in terms of characters. We can accept flying and super strength as long as humans react and behave like real people. What feels fake for an audience isn't the "specials" of a story, but the lack of believable characters. It's a minor problem for this serie, but it's still eye-rolling that they do it in the way they do it. Of course, if Krysten Ritter didn't want it that choice need to be respected, but if the decision was from Netflix I would argue that it's unnecessary and hurts characterization.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
This is bull...
You mean to say that it's not better to use such stories for highlighting real conflicts and creating philosophical thought experiments which triggers new thoughts and bring perspective to real issues in the world? It's the whole point of such stories if they are good. A "normal" story about "normal" people might scratch the surface of a problem, while sci-fi and myth stories have always been about creating thought experiments for the audience. The whole point of the old greek myths played in amphitheatres was to highlight real issues and conflicts in peoples lives to give them tools to think about them. It's absolutely "adult" if the issues are subjects that are mature, like a patriarch society filled with control and rape-culture. This show does just that, handles really mature subjects in the sci-fi realm, highlighting them in order to talk about them.
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What I mean is that the expression of the collective "Power of Myth" (yes, I read Joseph Campbell too) is more difficult to achieve in a narrative that relies on distinguishing an archetype in the corporeal world. I would argue that a script based in the real world can deliver a much more nuanced and rich emotional experience than one broadly drawn from fantasy. I admire the feats of imagination in stories like these but I call it a cop out because it it easier to change the world to suit your narrative than to define your narrative, and exploration of its theme, in the world.

It has two components that make every motion picture better. 1. Shot on Dragon. 2. Shot in NYC.
 
Hugh Scully said:
What I mean is that the expression of the collective "Power of Myth" (yes, I read Joseph Campbell too) is more difficult to achieve in a narrative that relies on distinguishing an archetype in the corporeal world. I would argue that a script based in the real world can deliver a much more nuanced and rich emotional landscape than one broadly drawn from fantasy. I admire the feats of imagination in stories like these but I call it a cop out because it it easier to change the world to suit your narrative than to define your narrative, and exploration of its theme, in the world.
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But isn't this doing the exact thing of putting the subject matters in a high level of exploration while still holding on to everyday characters and emotions? This is what I mean when I compare it to other super hero stories like the Avengers which have a much less complex story. Even if they are in the same world, Jessica Jones still has more focus on the same kind of real drama and real characters. I mean, the very revealing psychology of Jessicas neighbor being forced to tell the truth about why she says that she could foresee the accident ends up in a very naked truth about why people say things like that, "it made me feel important". It's a very deep exploration of human behavior which is no where present in works like the Avengers. So even if the surface is superheroes and super powers, the layers underneath still explores deep areas of the human psyche. It's easy to miss it with all the bangs and punches, but I wouldn't call it changing the world to suit your narrative, I'm rather calling it enhancing the world and narrative to more deeply explore the themes of this world.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
But isn't this doing the exact thing of putting the subject matters in a high level of exploration while still holding on to everyday characters and emotions? This is what I mean when I compare it to other super hero stories like the Avengers which have a much less complex story. Even if they are in the same world, Jessica Jones still has more focus on the same kind of real drama and real characters. I mean, the very revealing psychology of Jessicas neighbor being forced to tell the truth about why she says that she could foresee the accident ends up in a very naked truth about why people say things like that, "it made me feel important". It's a very deep exploration of human behavior which is no where present in works like the Avengers. So even if the surface is superheroes and super powers, the layers underneath still explores deep areas of the human psyche. It's easy to miss it with all the bangs and punches, but I wouldn't call it changing the world to suit your narrative, I'm rather calling it enhancing the world and narrative to more deeply explore the themes of this world.
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Sure. I agree that the themes expressed in JJ touch a deeper chord than Avengers by a long shot. I can't really tell what the themes in the Avengers are, honestly. That just seems like spectacle to me. I'm grateful that the show explores the psychology and darker themes that it does. Perhaps the framework of a super hero story clears the way to bring these things into stark relief and in that may lie my assertion, albeit somewhat ham-fisted, that this approach is "easier." It's easier, in my view, precisely because of it's association with spectacle. "Come for the girl-with-the-super-hero-arm beating up the bad guys, stay for the ennui!" It's a level of indirection that we like. Hey, I like it.

As a way of example, to use a theme you mentioned earlier, of male-dominant culture, I find the exploration of that in the Affair which is placed squarely in the real world, more compelling and subtle. I'll spare the detail as I don't know if you've seen this one.

You mentioned "thought experiments" earlier as a way of inspiring exploration in narrative and I do like this notion, very much. I guess all fiction is a thought experiment, a "what if?" Here the super hero stories flatten for me as opposed to a fantasy and attending thought experiment evident in say "The Leftovers" What if everyone experienced the grief attendant with losing a loved one all at the same time? One I haven't checked out yet, but look forward to seeing, is the new Amazon one "The Man in the High Castle." What if the allies lost WWII? Would Americans submit or rise up? Now that's a thought experiment!

I am sure my bias is cultural. I cut my teeth on Arthur Miller, Tennessee William, etc. I wish I could have shared in the excitement around graphic novels but I'm afraid I'm a bit of a dinosaur in that.
 
So I just finished the season and I really really enjoyed the ride. I didn't consume it as feverishly as I did Daredevil. And that's ok! Jessica Jones is heavier than Daredevil and I needed to process it. I think one problem I had was coming into it expecting an action piece (like DD) which is not what this was, so I had to adjust... but then it also wasn't AS MUCH as a detective show as I expected, it was almost more of a lawyer procedural... It's hard to not compare it to Sherlock. It's deeper than sherlock but less smart.

All that said, I was very very won over by Jessica, Luke, Malcolm, Trish and (of course) Kilgrave. This may be the best Marvel Villain ever on screen. So wonderfully interesting and damaged and complex... I enjoyed the heck out of it! I'm excited and nervous about season 2! :-)
 
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