How import R3D files into new Final Cut Pro X?

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry, if you edit with prores files in FCP-X and use After Effects I wrote an applescript that will let you reconnect to R3Ds and bring the whole project in After Effects for FX/finish. you can check out a demo video of my script 'foolcut_AE' on vimeo : http://vimeo.com/28681222

When REDCINE-X PRO lua scripting will allow import of clips on a multi-tracks timeline I'll look into writing an FCP-X to REDCINE-X PRO convert tool.

RED One QT Proxy files do import in FCP-X (and can also be sent to AE) but I'm not really sure it is the best way to edit RED clips in FCP-X...

Mikael

Mikael - I did forget about your tool but probably because I am one of the few around here who don't use AE. My nirvana would be to edit a proxy in FCPX, then have the ability to reconnect with the R3Ds, carrying along everything I applied in FCPX (including prelim color grading). At this point, I am just not sure where I might want to finish an R3D project - Color, which I am comfortable with, or DaVinci (not yet familiar with it). With all the recent changes, I am probably a little confused about all this.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think this while native thing is over rated.

Treat RED like film.

No one ever cut film natively until the neg cut. It's the same here. Just color time the digital jeg cut and edit dallies.

Optimized or proxy media is dailies.

The RED system was never really built to he optimized for full Rez real time. You need hardware power or gpu trickery to do that.

It's still best to edit dallies "offline" and finish films "online". This goes for premier too. I'd still rather edit proxy media or rallies than my originals.


The perfect FCP x plugin would allow me to edit at 1/8 Rez and switch on the r3d to access all the tools like iso, lift gamma gain wb, etc. for a grade before I output.

And that's only for jobs that I don't take to a dedicated coloring system.

David.

What David said!!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think this while native thing is over rated.

Treat RED like film.

David.

I would rather not manage two sets of media. If there is a transcode caching the footage to disk I want that invisible to the user. It's the year 2011 we shouldn't have to work with proxies anymore--at least not consciously.

 

[David Battistella]

The bottle neck is not in computing power. It is in the r3d file. This is why you need to bring in another computer (redrocket card) in order to crunch debayering data.

The same problem exists for all NLE's not just FCP X.

I like the idea of having two sets of media. We generally need 3 copies of R3D data, what is the big deal of having a TC matched set off rendered media?

I hear you though Gavin, we do deserve an elegant solution.

Many might say that is Premiere, but I personally do not feel like that is an elegant editing tool. I don't often hear about it used in features or any kind of serious work.
Avid wraps everything in DNX HD.

The point is that NATIVE 4K full resolution editing is far to taxing on the whole system. I want the offline process to be smooth. I want it to be trouble free.

If I am in a rush job, I just do what Toia does, render it all to 4444 from RCX in rLOG FILM, REDGAMMA 2 and keep the R3D as a backup if you have to squeeze more out of any shot.

WE all might want r3d to be realtime. If it were RT in FCP X people would bitch about how shitty the software is.

This is why I still treat R3D like film.

Shoot.
Create dallies.
Edit real media
Reconform to R3D
Finish Picture
Finish audio
Marry them in the NLE
Output

Works for me. Might not work in news production, but R3D is a cinema format not a video format.

David

 

[Bruce Allen]

The bottle neck is not in computing power. It is in the r3d file. This is why you need to bring in another computer (redrocket card) in order to crunch debayering data.

The same problem exists for all NLE's not just FCP X.

I like the idea of having two sets of media. We generally need 3 copies of R3D data, what is the big deal of having a TC matched set off rendered media?

I hear you though Gavin, we do deserve an elegant solution.

Many might say that is Premiere, but I personally do not feel like that is an elegant editing tool. I don't often hear about it used in features or any kind of serious work.
Avid wraps everything in DNX HD.

Nope - Avid gives you the option of wrapping everything in DNxHD... or reading the R3Ds directly.

You can do a hybrid workflow where you do rough cuts using the R3D files while you're on set, then later when you get a ton of footage, go to the Transcode menu option and transcode everything to DNxHD when you want to do the full edit with smooth low-data-rate files. Having the option to go from one to the other without using any external programs is really powerful and the best of both worlds IMHO.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[David Battistella]

Nope - Avid gives you the option of wrapping everything in DNxHD... or reading the R3Ds directly.
You can do a hybrid workflow where you do rough cuts using the R3D files while you're on set, then later when you get a ton of footage, go to the Transcode menu option and transcode everything to DNxHD when you want to do the full edit with smooth low-data-rate files. Having the option to go from one to the other without using any external programs is really powerful and the best of both worlds IMHO.

This is basically the idea with every single codec in FCP X (not R3D yet though) but you could actually create QT proxy media and do the same thing. But this is where the import from camera SDK comes in.

David

 

[Bruce Allen]

This is basically the idea with every single codec in FCP X (not R3D yet though) but you could actually create QT proxy media and do the same thing. But this is where the import from camera SDK comes in.

David

Um... you just said that "Avid wraps everything in DNxHD" ?

And I said that "No, Avid gives you the choice of wrapping everything in DNxHD or loading it natively... or from going from one to the other as you see fit..."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Deanan]

Well thats good if Apple have provided an SDK then, but I thought Deannan had said on page one of this tread :-

There isn't an SDK for FCPX for us to implement R3D support directly into FCPX.

FCPX 10.0.1 had "Export" support, not import.

It's the Import one that will enable us to add R3D support.

 

[David Battistella]

Um... you just said that "Avid wraps everything in DNxHD" ?

And I said that "No, Avid gives you the choice of wrapping everything in DNxHD or loading it natively... or from going from one to the other as you see fit..."

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Thanks Bruce. I stand corrected.

David

 

[Terry VerHaar]

FCPX 10.0.1 had "Export" support, not import.

It's the Import one that will enable us to add R3D support.

Deanan - I know this is probably a "dumb" question but since we both know the old saying...

Sitting here in front of FCP-X, I do see a "File>Import>XML" menu choice as well as a "File>Import from camera..." choice. Also, there is already support for various other camera file types. Are you saying that these menu actions still have no substance behind them for import, i.e. the SDK isn't yet ready to enable these? Did those "other guys" get special early access outside of the SDK? Or, maybe I just have it all wrong. If so, has there been any indication from Apple as to when the Import support will be forthcoming?

Thanks. (I'll be loving this when it happens!!)

 

[Nick Shaw]

Did those "other guys" get special early access outside of the SDK? Or, maybe I just have it all wrong. If so, has there been any indication from Apple as to when the Import support will be forthcoming?)

The 10.0.1 page says:

Camera Import SDK
Camera manufacturers can use the Camera Import SDK to write plug-ins for importing media from a wide range of cameras. For example, Sony is updating their XDCAM EX plug-in to support native import directly into Final Cut Pro X.

Does that SDK not have the necessary API to add R3D support?

Having said that I cannot actually see that SDK listed in the Apple Developer Library.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

FCPX 10.0.1 had "Export" support, not import.

It's the Import one that will enable us to add R3D support.

Really...

 

[Santiago Marti]

I still don't get why you wouldn't want to edit native footage. Seriously, if you work a lot with r3d, why transcode? Why waste time and drive space? My two year old laptop cuts r3d at 1/4 res over one esata drive, even Epic 5K files with hdrx plays on Ppro. I know you want to use fcpx, but it is 2011. Why use proxies?

 

[David Battistella]

These are my perceived advantages to rendered media workflow

-stability
-double system audio syncing
-less ram intensive
-portable
-offline/online workflow
-easier to create intermediate DVD/web versions of rough edits
-not editing original media
-consistent high quality image
-more layers of RT effects
-multicam editing

That's it.


David

 

[Santiago Marti]

David, i don't see all that as an advantage, different points of view of course.

- I don't have stability issues whatsoever.
- Double system audio syncing works fine on r3d material, just like any file based material.
-Less ram intensive maybe, but with only 8 Gb of ram in my laptop it does work, in my desktop i have 32Gb. Portable, well, redcode is not heavy at all, it doesn' take much more space than prores, and you have raw metadata all the time.
-offline/online workflow, i don't see the advantage there.
-easier to create intermediate DVD/web versions of rough edits. Easier or faster? I don't see a huge difference in rendering speeds using 8 cores.
-not editing original media. well, i use a backup of the original media, is that what you meant?
-consistent high quality image. At 1/2 rez 4.5K r3d on a 10bit display Red material looks gorgeous, really.
-more layers of RT effects. That would be an advantage, depending your workflow. Editing r3d's natively i don't use color fx, i only play with metadata, as in RCX pro, and only use flips or scale fx that work real time, so it really depends on your workflow, but i see the advantage there. I only render warp stabilization.
-multicam editing. there you have another advantage, i can only edit at 1/2 rez only for layers of r3d's, then i have to go to 1/4 rez, but it does look good.

You should try Ppro on a good machine and left prejudice aside, if you are a red centric post house it will save you money and time. Having access to raw metadata is priceless to me. Start editing after shooting and copying files to my raid is really cool. Get a quadro, a dreamcolor, and you have a cheap 10bit monitoring system with good results and color concistency across applications.

My two cents.

 

[J Taylor]

I've heard that Adobe Premiere is capable of editing 2K R3D files natively, do you know if this is true? If it is, does it require a specific graphics card or will the standard AMD in the 2011 Mac Pros be enough?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

First of all, people need to get off RED's back over the FCPX SDK situation. Stop jumping to conclusions over that little tidbit Apple announced along with the 10.0.1 update. The so-called SDK is a fuckin joke. The ability to import anything is extremely limited, there's pretty much no way to get reasonable R3D import, let alone a way to integrate support for the Rocket or to perpetuate any form of RAW data through the pipeline. Not only that, but it's not even generally available, it's in its infancy, just being tested out by a few key partners. There is a larger SDK planned (supposedly), but most don't expect it to rear its head until WWDC, which is about 8 months away. Hopefully it will bring the ability for companies like AJA, BMD, RED, etc.. to integrate support for monitoring and accelerator hardware. Allow full ability to develop complete format support for the editing pipeline, things like that. Until then, all we have is a half-assed image I/O interface and the initial release was export-only, regardless of Apple saying import and export in their little announcement.

Native, non-transcode workflows, are the future. Unfortunately they're not a complete reality just yet. Premiere, Vegas Pro, Smoke, etc.. get pretty close and are 99% there for RED One footage. EPIC footage support is still shaky, especially when it comes to audio. And once the ability to go completely native does arrive, there will still be a ton of people who will prefer a transcoded workflow for one reason or another. Many of them just to stay within their established workflow routine or comfort zone. Kinda like how people keep sticking with FCP, even if they predominantly work with R3D files, just because of comfort level. It's not a bad choice by any means, but it personally isn't my choice these days... And I'm an FCP guy, I used it almost exclusively for nearly 5 years... When it comes to R3D and NLE's I'm pretty much all Premiere these days. It's just not worth the hassle to jump through all the hoops for FCP / FCPX.

I've heard that Adobe Premiere is capable of editing 2K R3D files natively, do you know if this is true? If it is, does it require a specific graphics card or will the standard AMD in the 2011 Mac Pros be enough?

You need to just try it for yourself, free 30-day demo and all that. On a proper setup, you can edit 5K EPIC footage, multiple streams of it, just fine. The graphics card does not accelerate RED footage (or most any footage) directly. It does accelerate scaling, color LUT application, certain layered operations, as well as some FX and transitions that are marked as being GPU-accelerated. Decompression, debayer and decoding of your footage, R3D or otherwise, is still all CPU-bound. Premiere supports CUDA for GPU acceleration, which means you need one of the more current nVidia graphics cards. The AMD/ATI cards won't do it. Although, that said, I was cutting 4K R3D projects in Premiere CS4 in January of '09 on an '06 2.33GHz Core2 Duo MacBook Pro with 2GB RAM, an ATI X1600 graphics chip and an eSATA RAID. CS4 had no CUDA acceleration or Mercury Playback Engine. CS5.5 handles beautifully on a current generation Macbook Pro too. Does EPIC 5K just fine and there's no nVidia / CUDA GPU in there. I just spent two days at a client's location, editing a small corporate piece on a 15" Macbook Pro (early 2011 model) with 8GB RAM and a 2TB LaCie Thunderbolt Little Big Disk as my workspace.

You can actually edit with 2 to 4 streams of 5K EPIC footage, in 2K working resolution, in Premiere CS5.5 on a current high-end model of Mac Pro or high-end PC workstation.

Premiere and AfterEffects also support the RED Rocket. AE does not use GPU acceleration currently, nor does it have multiprocessor support within the working environment (just render), a Rocket is really a must.

 

[Deanan]

Really...

Yes, really.
If we don't have it, we can't build it.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Yes, really.
If we don't have it, we can't build it.

Deanan - thanks for the straightforward answer. Right now, I am OK with transcoding out of RCX which is, of course, a fabulous tool. I look forward to the capability to import R3Ds into FCPX when the SDK is available. :thumbup1:

 

[Trevor Meier]

Bah... allright...

Thanks for the straight talk Deanan.