Audio question, dual-system

[Jonathan Alberts]

hey there--

sorry...this is a total novice/newbie question but i'm getting set to edit a RED project, for a low-budget indie feature (shoot 4K, 23.98, finishing with a 2K 35mm film out) and i'm curious about audio. they'll be using a dual system for audio (to DAT, i would assume) and i have a couple questions about that.

is it true that to use the audio from the DATs during my edit i'm going to have to sync all of that material? i've read all about that BWF helper app but is this my only option?

is there any method of running the DAT sound into the RED so as to be able to use it through post?

how are most people dealing with this on features?

ideally, i'd like to skip syncing but have decent audio. (duh!) an audio post conform isn't out of the question either but i'd like to see how others have approached this.

thanks,
jonathan

 

[Neil Uchitel]

Hi Jonathan,

If you've got a sound guy recording separately, then necessarily the audio on his boxes (hopefully it's digital, not DAT) will sound significantly better. RED audio is still a long way from being at industry standards for quality, even though many RED users have used it. From the mic preamps to the A/D converters, there are many reasons why you'd want to eventually use the external audio sources.

But, you will definitely want to have your sound guy send you an audio feed from his box during shooting. It won't be great quality, but at least you'll have sync sound and can start editing immediately. You can let the audio follow your TC or vice versa, but either way, you'll have a TC stamp on the audio that will match later on. Make sure to use a slate so that in case the TC drifts or doesn't sync for whatever reason, you've at least got a sync point with the clapper. When you have a locked edit, you can then go back and conform only the select audio, instead of having to sync all the dailies. I know audio conforms are tedious, but it is well worth it in the end. If you want more advice, you can always visit http://cinemasound.ning.com/, and ask the pro location sound guys.

Cheers

 

[Philip Hodgetts]

You might want to check out the demo of Sync-N-Link from my company - Intelligent Assistance. It was designed to automate the synchronizing of dual system sound (assuming matching TC). But it can also let you work with camera audio throughout the edit and sync to the multitrack audio at the end of editorial. http://assistedediting.com/Sync-N-Link/

Cheers

Philip

 

[Jonathan Alberts]

[Neil Uchitel] "But, you will definitely want to have your sound guy send you an audio feed from his box during shooting. It won't be great quality, but at least you'll have sync sound and can start editing immediately."

thanks guys this is really helpful. so...just one question. when you say it won't be *great* sound...how useable will it be? will it be discreet channels and decent enough to build temp tracks and for screenings? i understand that this is somewhat subjective but i need good quality...would the difference be negligible to non-trained audio ears?

thanks to both of you for the info.

jonathan

 

[Neil Uchitel]

Well, because RED audio has lots of problems, A/D conversion and level control being two major ones, the sound you'll get will be usable for offline purposes, but its not finish quality. If your sound guy is sending you unattenuated levels, your dialog might get distorted. I think RED audio is thin and lacks depth. Every RED job I've done location sound for, after they've reconformed final audio the director always says "Man, your audio sounds so much better." If this were an obscure concern for geeked out audiophiles, I wouldn't bother writing about it, but RED audio is so much worse than many prosumer cameras like the HVX or Canon, that I can't emphasize enough how important using the sound guy's audio is. Just take the time to conform the audio from the final locked edit. It won't take you as long as you think if your sound guy syncs it right, and its really worth it, assuming he uses good mics and good recording equipment.

Think of it like this: You could go to a screening with your picture too saturated or with too much contrast. You could also go at half res. Would that bother most viewers? Probably not, but would you want your film to show like that? Would you go to the fest with bad color correction? I wouldn't. It's fine enough to show in the edit bay, but I wouldn't go to a screening with it. You only have 1 first impression. Audio is 50% of the show, and in my experience, people will tolerate less than perfect picture - they usually think it's a "look". This is true for both film, and games as well (think of the Wii - lousy graphics, fun as hell). Since audio for picture is a transparent art (or, another way of putting it is you get zero points for doing it perfectly), when it's hard to hear or not mixed well, etc., people notice it, esp with dialog. If it's a film with lots of dialog the movie isn't as much watched as it is listened to.

I just recently watched a movie shot on RED that won a big cash prize at a festival, and it was shown from a DVD copy through a projector that artifacted the picture all over the place, and was super contrasty, and from what I could tell nobody cared. People I talked to thought it looked great. The audio was on-camera audio and it was terrible - distorted in several places and sometimes mixed too low and several people non-audio viewers commented about that to me.

 

[Jonathan Alberts]

thanks for this, very helpful. Not having any experience with the RED it's useful to get your input. My biggest concern is using audio in my offline edit that is *fine* for offline editing. I would never think of using those temp tracks as final without post conforming the audio. It's interesting to know that it's so much worse than other prosumer equipment.

To me audio is more than 50% of the show unless you have a bad mix, low levels or distortion then it becomes much more important than 50%. I agree, picture suffers and people don't care. Audio suffers and it's completely difficult to watch.

 

[Stuart English]

Audio quality

Audio quality

My biggest concern is using audio in my offline edit that is *fine* for offline editing. I would never think of using those temp tracks as final without post conforming the audio. It's interesting to know that it's so much worse than other prosumer equipment.

I think recorded audio quality is a matter of opinion.

If you follow the instructions on sending a line level signal at 0dBu reference level from your mixer, then audio quality can be very good.

However, like every other camera in existence, recording separate sound will always be of a higher quality.

So if you can do the latter, you should.

 

[Karl Lohninger]

Jonathan, it's really not a big deal to sync the audio. That's part of preparation an editor or his assistant has to do. Just do it. You can do it via TC or clap - my preferred (because it's faster for me by far) way is using the clap. Also, don't forget you're going to have to watch and bin all the footage anyway - it's really not a big deal. Re DAT: it is 'digital' hence 9digital audio tape), but a bit outdated nowadays. Talk with the sound mixer - ask what he's using. Make sure there are no TC issues. Good luck.

 

[Jonathan Alberts]

two things...i know recording separate sound will always produce better quality. i think most of us doing feature work are quite happy to record double system, are used to it and prefer it. doing a post conform is a regular part of the process that we've been used to for years. but i understand the difficulty about posing questions about 'quality' here because naturally we all have different needs. so, hearing, stuart that you thing the audio quality can be very good is quite useful.

synching audio is fine too. i've done it many times and if it has to be done then i'll do it. but to be honest, i'd rather my assistant not spend time synching audio if he doesn't have to. technically it's easy, yes...but i'd rather free up his time for other things in the cutting room. still, i think i'd go the way of TC as i only want to sync with clap if absolutely necessary.

naturally,

 

[Karl Lohninger]

Probably 80 % if not more of Hollywood (studio) productions are shot without TC. Clap only. JFYI.

 

[Jonathan Alberts]

really? that's surprising. interesting to know. i suppose if I had 3 editorial assistants and a boatload of money to throw at these things time really wouldn't be an issue. dare to dream, i suppose. sigh.

 

[Karl Lohninger]

It's quite the opposite. They know exactly what they're doing and they do not need 3 assistants either, one is enough.