Anamorphic Deesqueez Question

[todjs]

Hello everyone from Spain, I have a small problem. I have to shoot a project with the DZO PAVO 2x. For production and project management reasons they want to shoot in 8k so I ordered the 1.6x expander but the Monstro does not convert to 1.6x. Is there any way I can desqueeze to 1.6x? The manual says this:
The camera supports anamorphic 1.3x and 2x with each format.
The camera supports anamorphic 1.25x for 6K full format and 8K full format.
The camera supports anamorphic 1.8x for 8K 4:3 and 3:2 formats.
Thanks in advance!!!!!

 

[Phil Holland]

1.6X Expander is a magnifying optics, has no impact on squeeze ratio. You will want to work in any 2X format when using it.

I'm assuming this is a VV sensor, typically you'd use the 8K 2X or 6:5 ratio for anamorphic, which unsqueezes to 2.4:1. If you are looking to use your whole sensor, 2X comes out to a 3.79:1 very wide aspect ratio.

 

[todjs]

1.6X Expander is a magnifying optics, has no impact on squeeze ratio. You will want to work in any 2X format when using it.

I'm assuming this is a VV sensor, typically you'd use the 8K 2X or 6:5 ratio for anamorphic, which unsqueezes to 2.4:1. If you are looking to use your whole sensor, 2X comes out to a 3.79:1 very wide aspect ratio.

Hi Mr. Phil thanks for your response.
Yes, Camera is Red Monstro VV. The camera it doesn't have 1.6x decompression for preview. I wanted to ask if there is any trick in the camera that can set this decompression so that I can monitor properly from the camera.

 

[Les Hillis]

As Phil said, you can de-squeeze and monitor the image properly from the camera by setting the RED Monstro VV to '8K 6:5 2xANA' when using the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses.

The separate issue to the Anamorphic de-squeeze question, is that the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses are designed to cover the smaller Super-35 sized sensors, not the larger Vista-Vision sized sensors like in the RED Monstro.

So, without using the 1.6X Expander, the 2xANA image being projected out from the back of the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses will not fill the entire Monstro 8K Vista-Vision sized sensor and will cause vignetting to be visible on the edge of the 8K VV frame (even when correctly de-squeezed using the 8K 6:5 2xANA setting in-camera).

If not using the 1.6X Expander, you would have to crop into the 8K VV sensor (either in post or in camera using a lower resolution) to remove the vignetting and get a clear image edge to edge.

Using the 1.6X Expander though, the optics inside the 1.6X Expander will magnify and expand out the Super-35 sized image coming from the back of the lens to cover the full 8K VV sensor, with no settings needing to be changed in camera.

 

[todjs]

As Phil said, you can de-squeeze and monitor the image properly from the camera by setting the RED Monstro VV to '8K 6:5 2xANA' when using the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses.

The separate issue to the Anamorphic de-squeeze question, is that the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses are designed to cover the smaller Super-35 sized sensors, not the larger Vista-Vision sized sensors like in the RED Monstro.

So, without using the 1.6X Expander, the 2xANA image being projected out from the back of the DZO PAVO 2x Anamorphic lenses will not fill the entire Monstro 8K Vista-Vision sized sensor and will cause vignetting to be visible on the edge of the 8K VV frame (even when correctly de-squeezed using the 8K 6:5 2xANA setting in-camera).

If not using the 1.6X Expander, you would have to crop into the 8K VV sensor (either in post or in camera using a lower resolution) to remove the vignetting and get a clear image edge to edge.

Using the 1.6X Expander though, the optics inside the 1.6X Expander will magnify and expand out the Super-35 sized image coming from the back of the lens to cover the full 8K VV sensor, with no settings needing to be changed in camera.

Hi Les Thanks for the response... many many thanks. I understand about the configuration camera. Thanks for the info from spain! You have 2 beers if you visit Granada in Spain!

 

[Les Hillis]

No worries, glad to help, have fun shooting anamorphic with the Monstro.

 

[todjs]

No worries, glad to help, have fun shooting anamorphic with the Monstro.

Thanks Mr Les.. So I'm confused because I thought that the 2x images were updated to 1.6x when you used an expander and from what you say that's not the case. The expander simply enlarges the back of the lens and can cover larger sensors, losing some light steps, without affecting the focal length (50mm/40mm etc). Is that correct?

 

[Les Hillis]

Yes, that's correct, the 1.6x of the expander is an overall magnification factor, not an anamorphic squeeze factor.

It can be confusing because there are different adapters out there that do expand and reduce and squeeze the image with varying 1.xxX factors.

However, in this case, the 2x squeeze factor of the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lenses remains 2x even with a 1.6x expander.

All the 1.6x expander is doing is magnifying/expanding the image coming from the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lens (which was designed to cover Super-35 sized sensors) 1.6 times, so that it can cover a larger than Super-35 sensor.

I'd suggest testing the camera/lens/adapter combination before shooting, using different f/stops and focusing to infinity as well as the minimal-focus-distance, in order to see for yourself what the lenses are actually doing, checking for changes to actual focal length field-of-view, vignetting, exposure, overall softness/sharpness, distortion and aberrations etc.

You should also check how the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lenses perform on the Monstro VV without the 1.6x expander. Changing the resolution in-camera to record 5K 6:5 2xANA will crop into the 8K 6:5 2xANA frame 1.6x and may give you a better overall image, or one that you simply prefer the look of.

 

[todjs]

Yes, that's correct, the 1.6x of the expander is an overall magnification factor, not an anamorphic squeeze factor.

It can be confusing because there are different adapters out there that do expand and reduce and squeeze the image with varying 1.xxX factors.

However, in this case, the 2x squeeze factor of the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lenses remains 2x even with a 1.6x expander.

All the 1.6x expander is doing is magnifying/expanding the image coming from the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lens (which was designed to cover Super-35 sized sensors) 1.6 times, so that it can cover a larger than Super-35 sensor.

I'd suggest testing the camera/lens/adapter combination before shooting, using different f/stops and focusing to infinity as well as the minimal-focus-distance, in order to see for yourself what the lenses are actually doing, checking for changes to actual focal length field-of-view, vignetting, exposure, overall softness/sharpness, distortion and aberrations etc.

You should also check how the DZO PAVO 2x anamorphic lenses perform on the Monstro VV without the 1.6x expander. Changing the resolution in-camera to record 5K 6:5 2xANA will crop into the 8K 6:5 2xANA frame 1.6x and may give you a better overall image, or one that you simply prefer the look of.

 

[todjs]

Thank you for your reply Mr. Hills. In that case we could say that for example a 50mm lens multiplied by the 1.6x magnification factor becomes 80mm, right?

 

[Les Hillis]

Yes and no.

Technically, yes, the lens is being magnified 1.6x, so roughly speaking a 50mm becomes an 80mm.

However, the main point of the 1.6x expander isn't to just directly magnify in a linear way, but to expand (even if the expansion is achieved through magnification), so that the image coming from the back of the Super-35mm format lens will be enlarged to fit the Full-Frame or Vista-Vision sized sensor.

The result is that the Field-Of-View you get with any given Super-35mm format lens (when it's projecting onto a Super-35mm sized sensor) shouldn't change if the image coming from the lens is expanded by the 1.6x magnification/expansion factor of the expander while also being projected onto a (1.6x larger than Super-35mm) Vista-Vision format sensor.

A 50mm will retain it's 50mm FOV, even if it's magnified to roughly match that of an 80mm Super-35mm format lens, because it's also being expanded out.

If however you were to use a 1.6x expander on the back of a 50mm Super-35mm format lens, but still use a Super-35mm sized sensor to capture with, then yes, the Field-Of-View of the 50mm lens would indeed be magnified and expanded, but then cropped 1.6x by the Super-35mm sized sensor, to roughly match the FOV and magnification of an 80mm Super-35mm format lens.

In practice, the exact numbers might be slightly different depending on the particular lenses and adapters used, and there may also be a slight difference between the actual magnification and expansion factors.

There are also some other reasons why the same lens would look different when shooting at its native Super-35 format compared to when using it with an adapter with a larger than Super-35mm format, but the effective FOV of the focal length of lens doesn't change (if the expander and larger sensor match).

 

[todjs]

Yes and no.

Technically, yes, the lens is being magnified 1.6x, so roughly speaking a 50mm becomes an 80mm.

However, the main point of the 1.6x expander isn't to just directly magnify in a linear way, but to expand (even if the expansion is achieved through magnification), so that the image coming from the back of the Super-35mm format lens will be enlarged to fit the Full-Frame or Vista-Vision sized sensor.

The result is that the Field-Of-View you get with any given Super-35mm format lens (when it's projecting onto a Super-35mm sized sensor) shouldn't change if the image coming from the lens is expanded by the 1.6x magnification/expansion factor of the expander while also being projected onto a (1.6x larger than Super-35mm) Vista-Vision format sensor.

A 50mm will retain it's 50mm FOV, even if it's magnified to roughly match that of an 80mm Super-35mm format lens, because it's also being expanded out.

If however you were to use a 1.6x expander on the back of a 50mm Super-35mm format lens, but still use a Super-35mm sized sensor to capture with, then yes, the Field-Of-View of the 50mm lens would indeed be magnified and expanded, but then cropped 1.6x by the Super-35mm sized sensor, to roughly match the FOV and magnification of an 80mm Super-35mm format lens.

In practice, the exact numbers might be slightly different depending on the particular lenses and adapters used, and there may also be a slight difference between the actual magnification and expansion factors.

There are also some other reasons why the same lens would look different when shooting at its native Super-35 format compared to when using it with an adapter with a larger than Super-35mm format, but the effective FOV of the focal length of lens doesn't change (if the expander and larger sensor match).

I understand perfectly what you want to tell me. Thank you very much for this explanation, which is also very very valuable.

 

[Les Hillis]

No worries, thanks for letting me know it made sense.